PLEASE HELP! My TRT Story

[John Winston]

My TRT Story:

This might be a little long but I really need help getting things right.

When I initially got on TRT I was prescribed Clomid 25mg a day and 50mg of test once weekly. This started out great. I got an immediate boost and my first labs after 6 weeks had my total test a little over 1500 and Free at 28. Sleep was still suffering but my sleep was terrible prior to TRT due to anxiety/low T so it was great to feel better in all other areas. After a while once I got used to this I went up to 80 mg a week with the 25mg daily clomid. This made me feel UNREAL. My total test shot up to 2043 and my Free was 38. I was an absolute animal in the gym and my mental focus and clarity was out of control. I was extremely warm and my sweat started to smell vastly different but these were OK side effects.

After this, at the advice of numerous friends and everyone online, I decided to drop the Clomid. Even after my clinic raised my test dose up to 200mg, I didn’t feel anywhere close to the way I did when I was on Clomid. I got back on Clomid except this time I needed 160mg of test along with the Clomid to feel good again. My levels at these doses were Total T of around 1820 and Free of 32. This was probably the best I had ever felt on TRT. My sleep finally came back and I still felt great in the gym but atleast able to calm down and sleep at the end of the night. Wanting to chase gains, I decided to up the Clomid to 37.5mg. This was where things got bad....

I felt good on this protocol for a few days, and then the unending exhaustion and tiredness hit. I didn’t up my anastrozole during this period and my estradiol shot up into the 90’s. On top of that, I’m assuming my SHBG climbed a bunch as well. I can’t describe the intense brain fog and exhaustion that hit me during this period. The odd thing is my hair which had thinned dramatically over the previous couple years returned in full force during this period. I had EXTREMELY teary, heavy eyes and could sleep 12/14 hours a day if I wanted. Obviously, after a week of this I moved the Clomid back down to 25mg. For some reason, I did not return to feeling good even after getting the estrogen back under control. I’ve lowered the dose, gotten on and off Clomid, change injection frequency protocol and I still can’t seem to return to feeling “anabolic” and in dominant mode. Not even close. This was a switch was immediately flipped that week when I increased the Clomid and I’ve never been able to return to form. Something happened here. When my injection frequency is frequent off Clomid (3-4 times a week), I feel dreadful and I have the same exhaustion and brain fog when returning to clomid at my old dose of 25mg. Even if my test levels are fine, I don’t feel anywhere close to where I did before. My last labs were with a protocol of 25mg Clomid, and one weekly injection of 125 mg. Now, I feel a little better with a once weekly injection but I’m still at my most tired and most foggy the next days after injection and feel best towards the end before the next injection. My gym performance is mediocre at all times.

Results:

Total Test: 1450
Free T: 25
SHBG: 47
Estradiol: 33

Unfortunately on labs prior to this my old clinic did not get an SHBG reading so I’m not sure what it was prior.

To summarize: Something happened in the process of getting on and off Clomid a few times where it's now like I do not respond properly to test. Any sort of decent amount whether it's with Clomid or without makes me feel exhausted, sleep endlessly, gives me brain fog, heavy/teary eyes and my head hair grew back completely? I feel "better" when lowering the test to almost nothing but simultaneously have no drive and am terrible in the gym. Does anyone know what could’ve happened to me and why I cannot seem to return to feeling good on TRT? Please read the whole thing before making quick judgments.

 

[Systemlord]

This was a switch was immediately flipped that week when I increased the Clomid and I’ve never been able to return to form.

I do not feel good with these numbers. Again, does anyone know what could’ve happened to me and why I cannot seem to return to feeling good on TRT?

I’ve heard members talk about stopping TRT for fertility, going on Clomid, return to TRT and never feel good on a protocol that previously was optimal.

These men struggle moving forward and my advice when you find a protocol that’s gets you great results, don’t f*** with it!

Hormone pathways are very delicate, and once you disrupt them, things may take a long time to return to normal or may never go back to the way they were.

 

[John Winston]

Problem is: I now don't feel good on ANY protocol. It's like my body now responds differently to testosterone whether regular test or coming from Clomid. It's scaring me.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Clomid has some strange affects due to having two isomers with two different half-lives. Something I found when I was on clomid-only was that to lower the dose I had to do a complete washout/reset of a month or so on nothing and then restart at a lower dose, so perhaps you could go off of everything and then restart just clomid and see how that goes. But I agree, in hindsight, the best course of action would have been to stay on your original protocol so if you can get back to that, I would stay there. The body seems to like consistency.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

forget about clomid. once this stuff is out of your system your will level out. i disagree with the statement that your body might be out of whack forever. complete nonsense. i would also disregard what worked for you previously. re-establish a new baseline. you have to experiment. I used to be on 200mg Tcyp (/3x doses weekly), and that stopped working for me. if i went lower, i felt like shit, but at 200 i was overstimulated. eventually I settled on daily Tprop injections (30mg) + 3x500IU HCG per week. feeling amazing now.

 

[bixt]

Clomid 25mg a day and 50mg of test once weekly. This started out great. I got an immediate boost and my first labs after 6 weeks had my total test a little over 1500 and Free at 28.

80 mg a week with the 25mg daily clomid. This made me feel UNREAL. My total test shot up to 2043 and my Free was 38.

I believe there is a lot of potentially useful information which can be gleaned from the OPs post. @tareload @Cataceous your input and feedback on my thoughts would be greatly appreciated, any other members too, theres so many to mention.

So I was thinking, TT 1500 @ just 50mg test and TT 2043 @ 80mg test is incredibly high, especially given the fact that these were weekly injections. In my opinion, the OP had some endogenous LH activity happening and endogenous T was supplementing and contributing to the high T numbers. I do vaguely recall @Dr Justin Saya MD mentioning he saw some small LH / FSH activity at doses under 100mg / week on a clomid thread years ago. What are your thoughts on the OP having good LH/endogenous T activity due to the addition of clomid? In this particular case these T different sources of T appear to be additive rather than the usual case of exogenous T shutting down LH/endogenous T.

If this is true, it could be incredibly useful since many feel better with the upstream hormones restored.

i find it likely this effect can be observed when starting a virgin TRT regimen due to starting with a fully intact HPTA. It may not be possible to add clomid in after a while of shutting down the HPTA and expect it to wake up (Theres anecdotes on this).

Even after my clinic raised my test dose up to 200mg, I didn’t feel anywhere close to the way I did when I was on Clomid.

Possibly due to the lack of upstream hormones, your HPTA is def fully down @200mg T and no clomid.

I got back on Clomid except this time I needed 160mg of test along with the Clomid to feel good again. My levels at these doses were Total T of around 1820 and Free of 32. This was probably the best I had ever felt on TRT. My sleep finally came back and I still felt great in the gym but atleast able to calm down and sleep at the end of the night.

Now your HTPA was more (hopefully temporarily) damaged due to a period of full shutdown. Desensitised pituitary or testicles. So going by numbers alone, thats why you need a high dose of T and yet have a lower TT than when using 80mg T a week. Perhaps theres a very tiny spike of LH happening here and there so you feel good.

Wanting to chase gains, I decided to up the Clomid to 37.5mg. This was where things got bad....

I felt good on this protocol for a few days, and then the unending exhaustion and tiredness hit. I didn’t up my anastrozole during this period and my estradiol shot up into the 90’s. On top of that, I’m assuming my SHBG climbed a bunch as well. I can’t describe the intense brain fog and exhaustion that hit me during this period. The odd thing is my hair which had thinned dramatically over the previous couple years returned in full force during this period. I had EXTREMELY teary, heavy eyes

I hypothesise that by now the Z isomer has built up. Half life of like 40 days or more. That + the sky high E2 makes you feel the way you do, classic sky high E2 symptoms.

The odd thing is my hair which had thinned dramatically over the previous couple years returned in full force during this period.

Not so odd at all. You are undergoing a mild M to F transition with those E2 levels (Not exactly! I half jest, but I want to dramatically get my point across). High E2 is pro hair. Many balding M to F subjects have seen dramatic hair regrowth during their E2 therapy. Suspect this is whats responsible for your hair regrowth. This is a topic on its own.


Now to conclude with potential solutions.
- Take a break for 3 months with absolutely nothing (to re sensitise everything, not to “wash out” the T you have injected)
- Add in clomid 12.5mg x 3 a week and wait a month. You should start to feel some improvement. Stick with this for 2 months. (For insurance, to get the HPTA in full force)
- Do bloods. If LH > 5, it means you HPTA is back online so you can then add back in the 50mg weekly test.
Hopefully this solves your issue and gets you back to where your were originally ( combination of endogenous T, exogenous T, somewhat functioning HPTA with upstream hormones)

And this goes without saying, please don't get greedy and then up doses after that.

Also please please if this works I beg you to post bloods while and after doing all this, we would love to see your LH numbers in addition to your TT numbers on this protocol of a little bit of T and a little bit of clomid!

 

[Cataceous]

I believe there is a lot of potentially useful information which can be gleaned from the OPs post. @tareload @Cataceous your input and feedback on my thoughts would be greatly appreciated, any other members too, theres so many to mention.
...

The story is confusing and a good example of how not to do TRT. Was testing done at trough? AI use mentioned in passing. I'd still bet against significant LH activity at those higher testosterone doses. Maybe he simply crushed estradiol relative to testosterone and needed the right amount of zuclomiphene to feel better?

 

[Vince]

My TRT Story:

This might be a little long but I really need help getting things right.

When I initially got on TRT I was prescribed Clomid 25mg a day and 50mg of test once weekly. This started out great. I got an immediate boost and my first labs after 6 weeks had my total test a little over 1500 and Free at 28. Sleep was still suffering but my sleep was terrible prior to TRT due to anxiety/low T so it was great to feel better in all other areas. After a while once I got used to this I went up to 80 mg a week with the 25mg daily clomid. This made me feel UNREAL. My total test shot up to 2043 and my Free was 38. I was an absolute animal in the gym and my mental focus and clarity was out of control. I was extremely warm and my sweat started to smell vastly different but these were OK side effects.

After this, at the advice of numerous friends and everyone online, I decided to drop the Clomid. Even after my clinic raised my test dose up to 200mg, I didn’t feel anywhere close to the way I did when I was on Clomid. I got back on Clomid except this time I needed 160mg of test along with the Clomid to feel good again. My levels at these doses were Total T of around 1820 and Free of 32. This was probably the best I had ever felt on TRT. My sleep finally came back and I still felt great in the gym but atleast able to calm down and sleep at the end of the night. Wanting to chase gains, I decided to up the Clomid to 37.5mg. This was where things got bad....

I felt good on this protocol for a few days, and then the unending exhaustion and tiredness hit. I didn’t up my anastrozole during this period and my estradiol shot up into the 90’s. On top of that, I’m assuming my SHBG climbed a bunch as well. I can’t describe the intense brain fog and exhaustion that hit me during this period. The odd thing is my hair which had thinned dramatically over the previous couple years returned in full force during this period. I had EXTREMELY teary, heavy eyes and could sleep 12/14 hours a day if I wanted. Obviously, after a week of this I moved the Clomid back down to 25mg. For some reason, I did not return to feeling good even after getting the estrogen back under control. I’ve lowered the dose, gotten on and off Clomid, change injection frequency protocol and I still can’t seem to return to feeling “anabolic” and in dominant mode. Not even close. This was a switch was immediately flipped that week when I increased the Clomid and I’ve never been able to return to form. Something happened here. When my injection frequency is frequent off Clomid (3-4 times a week), I feel dreadful and I have the same exhaustion and brain fog when returning to clomid at my old dose of 25mg. Even if my test levels are fine, I don’t feel anywhere close to where I did before. My last labs were with a protocol of 25mg Clomid, and one weekly injection of 125 mg. Now, I feel a little better with a once weekly injection but I’m still at my most tired and most foggy the next days after injection and feel best towards the end before the next injection. My gym performance is mediocre at all times.

Results:

Total Test: 1450
Free T: 25
SHBG: 47
Estradiol: 33

Unfortunately on labs prior to this my old clinic did not get an SHBG reading so I’m not sure what it was prior.

To summarize: Something happened in the process of getting on and off Clomid a few times where it's now like I do not respond properly to test. Any sort of decent amount whether it's with Clomid or without makes me feel exhausted, sleep endlessly, gives me brain fog, heavy/teary eyes and my head hair grew back completely? I feel "better" when lowering the test to almost nothing but simultaneously have no drive and am terrible in the gym. Does anyone know what could’ve happened to me and why I cannot seem to return to feeling good on TRT? Please read the whole thing before making quick judgments.

What's your hematocrit levels?

 

[Systemlord]

I hypothesise that by now the Z isomer has built up.

Increasing the Clomid dosage 25->37.5 mg may have made that happen sooner rather than later.

 

[zancek0]

@John Winston, what was your anastrazole protocol on clomid?

 

[zancek0]

@bixt, Let me just probe your brain for a bit.
Is PCT in your opinion required for people that have ran low dose TRT for a short period (3 months)? Would, hypothetically, HPTA come back online in full force, as you say, even without PCT, given enough time (say, 2 months)?

 

[Systemlord]

Would, hypothetically, HPTA come back online in full force, as you say, even without PCT, given enough time (say, 2 months)?

My HPTA came back in full force after 3 years on high dose TRT in 4.5 weeks with no PCT.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[zancek0]

My HPTA came back in full force after 3 years on high dose TRT in 4.5 weeks with no PCT.

Your mileage may vary.

Wow, that's some balls you've got

 

[Systemlord]

Wow, that's some balls you've got

I have a high threshold for pain. I just saw the quickest route and took it because I have that warrior mentality.

Cold turkey withdrawal off TRT pales in comparison to withdrawal off 30 year benzo use.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I have a high threshold for pain. I just saw the quickest route and took it because I have that warrior mentality.

Cold turkey withdrawal off TRT pales in comparison to withdrawal off 30 year benzo use.

i withdrew 2y benzo use long ago. what a fcking hell exp. after 30y i prob die with it unless forced of it for whatever reason

 

[John Winston]

Guys, I felt great on Clomid for a year and a half straight. I’d think the Z Isomer would’ve built up by then. I have never had high hematocrit and donate blood quarterly. LH production was probably high seeing as I started on very low test (50mg)and clomid right out of the natty gate, so LH production simply never ceased. I typically kept my estradial on the lower side all through that first year and a half at .5mg of anastrozole or .75. Since that week at 160mg test and 37.5mg clomid, ALL forms of decent levels of test just make me feel tired and no longer work for me as they should. I feel
hopeless as my workouts have always been good since I was 19 and now have zero
motivation to go.

 

[Systemlord]

LH production was probably high seeing as I started on very low test (50mg)and clomid right out of the natty gate, so LH production simply never ceased.

Sorry, but no way this is true.

 

[bixt]

@bixt, Let me just probe your brain for a bit.
Is PCT in your opinion required for people that have ran low dose TRT for a short period (3 months)? Would, hypothetically, HPTA come back online in full force, as you say, even without PCT, given enough time (say, 2 months)?

I have seen it happen in the younger guys a lot. Many high school boys do a 10-16 week test cycle with no PCT and appear anecdotally (dick, energy, loss of gains) to recover just fine. No dick downtime, I always make sure to ask this question as it's a surefire way to tell if something is wrong.

I have also however seen a fair share of young guys do stupid things like dbol only cycles with no PCT and then have some dick downtime and low energy for months. Their friends send them to me for advice and I recommend a taxomifen PCT and they strangely claim to be feeling 100% in just a few days...

It's as if the HPTA was resensitised but needed a "push" to kickstart it.


Then conversely I know some older guys (and by that I mean age 30-40), they physically look to be in what appears good health, gym rats. Lazy bastards though, cannot seem to train without some kind of juice in their system. Its a motivation thing, probably psychological where they need that extra oomph to lift heavy weights, but I digress. These guys always without fail have a really hard time anecdotally for months after their cycle is over. Zero motivation even at work, being depressed, giving up hope, stopping taking charge etc etc etc. And this is with a proper tamoxofen PCT. All low T symptoms. It take MONTHS thereafter to become their normal selves.

So going by my experience and to answer your question, I think age matters a lot and is the biggest factor. The young recover very fast and sometimes with no PCT. The middle aged guys suffer a lot even with a PCT. All this going by symptoms and not numbers (which is what matters end of the day). Bear in mind these are probably not low T TRT candidates and eventually they all return to what appears to be normal T behaviour and dick performance.

 

[zancek0]

I have seen it happen in the younger guys a lot. Many high school boys do a 10-16 week test cycle with no PCT and appear anecdotally (dick, energy, loss of gains) to recover just fine. No dick downtime, I always make sure to ask this question as it's a surefire way to tell if something is wrong.

I have also however seen a fair share of young guys do stupid things like dbol only cycles with no PCT and then have some dick downtime and low energy for months. Their friends send them to me for advice and I recommend a taxomifen PCT and they strangely claim to be feeling 100% in just a few days...

It's as if the HPTA was resensitised but needed a "push" to kickstart it.


Then conversely I know some older guys (and by that I mean age 30-40), they physically look to be in what appears good health, gym rats. Lazy bastards though, cannot seem to train without some kind of juice in their system. Its a motivation thing, probably psychological where they need that extra oomph to lift heavy weights, but I digress. These guys always without fail have a really hard time anecdotally for months after their cycle is over. Zero motivation even at work, being depressed, giving up hope, stopping taking charge etc etc etc. And this is with a proper tamoxofen PCT. All low T symptoms. It take MONTHS thereafter to become their normal selves.

So going by my experience and to answer your question, I think age matters a lot and is the biggest factor. The young recover very fast and sometimes with no PCT. The middle aged guys suffer a lot even with a PCT. All this going by symptoms and not numbers (which is what matters end of the day). Bear in mind these are probably not low T TRT candidates and eventually they all return to what appears to be normal T behaviour and dick performance.

Thanks for this informative reply!

 

[John Winston]

Here are my most recent labs. I am getting more labs including Test, E2, Ferritin, and a thyroid panel next week and will add them. Is there anything we can draw from these so far?