I’ve been having a debate with a member on here to no avail regarding how quickly one can feel the effects of an injection. He’s stating that no one can feel the effects as quickly as I am stating and it’s psychosomatic. I’ve been on injections for 9.5 of the last 11 years and no matter what my dose, I can dramatically feel it within an hour of the shot. Perhaps I’m in the minority but I’d like to get some feedback from other members on here. It doesn’t matter in my case whether it’s propionate, enanthate or cypionate I can feel all of them within an hour of the shot. I have zero reason to lie about this or anything to gain. Any responses appreciated.
Maybe I'm doing it all wrong.... but honestly, I don't "feel" much at all at injection time but the cumulative affects after almost a year are fantastic !
When I begin to ask myself "Do I really need to be doing this ?" I look in the mirror and remember back to what a slug I was becoming before I was made aware of all the benefits !
When I begin to ask myself "Do I really need to be doing this ?" I look in the mirror and remember back to what a slug I was becoming before I was made aware of all the benefits !
I believe you. Although I don't personally detect testosterone esters, I know that with testosterone propionate my serum level is peaking in a couple hours post-injection, plus or minus, so clearly it's rising rapidly after that first hour, if not before. It wouldn't surprise me if serum testosterone is rising nearly as fast with cypionate or enanthate. There may be some pushback on this because some studies may contradict the idea. But if you look at the basic bi-exponential model for absorption and consumption of testosterone esters you find that the time of peak serum testosterone is mostly dependent on the metabolic rate constant rather than on the much longer absorption rate constant. The testosterone esters control the absorption rate, not the metabolic rate.
It wouldn't be too hard for you to perform a blinded test to see if you really are detecting rising testosterone. You'd need to load one syringe with your testosterone and another with a placebo. The placebo would just be a sterile carrier oil that is indistinguishable from the one used with your testosterone. Someone would give you one of the syringes at random. 60-90 minutes post-injection you'd have to state which one you thought it was. Then you could inject the second syringe and after another 60-90 minutes see if you're sticking with your selection. Ideally this procedure would be repeated several times to see what your success rate is.
It wouldn't be too hard for you to perform a blinded test to see if you really are detecting rising testosterone. You'd need to load one syringe with your testosterone and another with a placebo. The placebo would just be a sterile carrier oil that is indistinguishable from the one used with your testosterone. Someone would give you one of the syringes at random. 60-90 minutes post-injection you'd have to state which one you thought it was. Then you could inject the second syringe and after another 60-90 minutes see if you're sticking with your selection. Ideally this procedure would be repeated several times to see what your success rate is.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I personally can't see how testosterone can be felt like that. It's such a subtile shift and alot of biological processes have to take place. Even with trt as a hole I only notice lack of negative side effects frim having low t as opposed to good levels. I never once felt a boost or some kind of high.
I may be a little different I'm a low shbg guy and have very little benefit from trt as a whole. But my point to sh is I do not think testosterone works like that
I may be a little different I'm a low shbg guy and have very little benefit from trt as a whole. But my point to sh is I do not think testosterone works like that
madman
Super Moderator
Definitely not common when it comes to esterified T.
Depending on the protocol one is following (dose T used/injection frequency) many would tend to feel something when levels peak (depending on the ester used) and when using the most commonly prescribed esters (cypionate/enanthate) levels will peak 8-12 hrs post-injection.
Even then when using enanthate/cypionate T levels will start rising (sharp increase) within 2 hrs post-injection.
Many who have tried unesterified T such as suspension or oil-based T pre-workout would tell you that they notice an increase in energy/mood/drive/aggression.
The same would apply to one of the oldest oral C-17 alpha-alkylated compounds methyltestosterone which had been used by many athletes (boxers, football players, powerlifters strongmen) pre-event to increase energy/drive/aggression.
I am using twice-weekly injections (enanthate) and I always feel amped up 12 hrs post-injection and a definite boost in mood/libido.
Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate as assessed by serum and salivary testosterone levels in normal men (1984)
By Th. Schurmeyer and E. Nieschlag
The pharmacokinetics of 2 testosterone esters, testosterone enanthate, and testosterone cyclohexane carboxylate, were compared in a single-blind crossover study in healthy young men. Their effects on serum and salivary levels of testosterone, as well as on the serum levels of LH, FSH, and prolactin were measured after the injection of doses equivalent to 140 mg free testosterone. Both preparations yielded supraphysiological testosterone levels in serum and saliva as early as 2 h following injection, reaching peak levels 4 to 5 times above basal between 8 and 24 h. LH and FSH levels were suppressed as long as serum testosterone levels were elevated. Nine days after injecting testosterone enanthate and 7 days after giving testosterone cyclohexane carboxylate, serum and salivary levels of testosterone had returned to basal. The longer activity of testosterone enanthate was also evidenced by more extended suppression of gonadotrophin levels. Although neither preparation is ideal because of the initial supraphysiological peaks, testosterone enanthate appears preferable for clinical use because of its slightly longer duration of action.
Study Design and Methods
Seven healthy men aged 22-31 years gave written consent to participate in the study after its purpose and possible risks had been explained in detail. Four volunteers chosen at random first received testosterone cyclohexane carboxylate, followed 5 weeks later by a testosterone enanthate injection. The other 3 volunteers received testosterone enanthate first and testosterone cyclohexane carboxylate 5 weeks later. For baseline values, a blood sample was obtained several days prior to the first injection, and another blood sample was taken immediately before the testosterone preparation was injected im. Further blood samples were obtained 2 and 8 h after the injection and then daily between 8 and 10 a.m. from days 1 to 5, every second day from days 5 to 15, and every third day from days 15 to 21. For every serum sample, a matched saliva sample was obtained. Saliva was collected without stimulation of salivary flow over 5 to 20 min by having the volunteers spit into a glass tube. Serum and saliva samples were stored at -20°C prior to analysis. Commercially available testosterone ester preparations were used containing 200 mg testosterone enanthate (Schering AG, Berlin/Bergkamen, FRG) in 0.8 ml oil or 200 mg testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate (Dr. Thilo & Co. GmbH, Sauerlachi Munchen, FRG) in 2 ml oil. The amount of testosterone in each preparation was the same, namely 140 mg. Expressed in relation to size the testosterone dose administered to the 7 volunteers ranged from 72 to 77 mg/ml.
Discussion
Injection of either testosterone enanthate or testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate in equivalent doses yielded increased serum and salivary testosterone concentrations and supraphysiological levels were achieved as early as 2 h after injection. Statistical analysis of the data shows that testosterone enanthate injection results in slightly higher serum testosterone levels for several days after injection and that this ester also suppresses gonadotrophins for a longer period than testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate. Pharmacokinetic studies with radioactively labeled testosterone enanthate have shown that it is the rate of absorption from the site of injection, rather than cleavage of the esterified side chain, which limits the flux of testosterone into the bloodstream (Sokol et al. 1981). Neither the slightly altered side chain of testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate compared with testosterone enanthate nor the 2.5 fold larger injection volume of the preparation resulted in a longer-lasting effect.
The pharmacokinetic properties of testosterone enanthate measured in the present study are in good agreement with published reports (Nieschlag et al. 1976; Schulte-Beerbiihl & Nieschlag 1981; Sokol et al. 1982). Previously it was shown that testosterone cypionate yielded identical serum testosterone levels to those obtained using testosterone enanthate. In the present study testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate given in an equivalent, the dose was effective for a somewhat shorter period of time. Alterations either in the testosterone ester, in the vehicle, or in the route of administration appear necessary to achieve a more physiological pattern of testosterone levels when substituting androgens.
Sokol et al. (1981) have shown that after an injection of testosterone enanthate both the esterified testosterone and the hydrolyzed free testosterone appear in the circulation. Since neither the circulating testosterone ester nor its effect on the free testosterone fraction, which diffuses into the target tissue, are detected by measuring total serum testosterone levels, we measured salivary testosterone, which correlates well with free testosterone and provides a good measure of the steroid available to target tissues (Wang et al. 1981). Previously we have shown that the high amounts of testosterone undecanoate circulating in blood after oral administration of this testosterone ester did not result in any additional increase in tissue testosterone levels as represented by the salivary levels of testosterone (Schurmeper et al. 1983). Similarly, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate also cause parallel increases in serum and salivary levels of testosterone i.e. the circulating ester does not cause an additional increase in steroid available to the tissue due to cleavage at the target organ.
The salivary testosterone levels also show that the supraphysiological peaks of serum testosterone which occur soon after the injection of the testosterone esters are matched by increases in free testosterone. Thus, the sharp increase in testosterone directly following the injection is not buffered by sex hormone-binding globulin or other plasma proteins. Nor are sudden decreases of serum testosterone levels compensated for by testosterone bound to serum proteins (Schurmeyer & Nieschlag 1982). Thus, androgen-target tissues are exposed to the same fluctuations in testosterone concentrations as those seen in the total levels in serum. This emphasizes once again the need for new testosterone preparations which are capable of maintaining more constant and more physiological serum levels of testosterone.
Fig. I. Serum and salivary levels of testosterone in 5 normal men following intramuscular injection of either 200 mg testosterone enanthate (closed circles) or 200 mg testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate (open circles)
The Antares Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate Auto-Injector study (2019) shows T levels peaking 10 hrs post-injection.
Your statement says levels can rise sharply within two hours so it seems it wouldn’t be that uncommon to feel the effects the first hour. It’s been like this every shot since I’ve started, no matter the dose. In my case I can only tolerate 60mg per week so I obviously over respond anyhow. It’s not quiet as noticeable subQ.
What continues to bother me about this study is that the apparent half-lives are so long, seven and 10 days respectively for IM and SC. Is this due to the lack of benzyl alcohol in the XYOSTED product? It's noted that benzyl alcohol improves the absorption rate of a nandrolone ester, so presumably the same applies to testosterone esters. On the other hand, the benzyl alcohol content is pretty low in the standard formulations. The research below also notes that the absorption-enhancing effects of benzyl alcohol are strongest early on, because the alcohol depletes faster than the ester.
The absorption of nandrolone is enhanced by the presence of benzyl alcohol. This is most likely an effect of altered oil viscosity and partition coefficient between the oil and aqueous phase.
...
It appeared that the absorption of nandrolone is enhanced by the presence of benzyl alcohol in the first few days. Subse- quently, upon BOH depletion, a change in absorption of nandrolone is seen.
Fundamental understanding of drug absorption from a parenteral oil depot
Oil depots are parenteral drug formulations meant for sustained release of lipophilic compounds. Until now, a comprehensive understanding of the mecha…
www.sciencedirect.com
madman
Super Moderator
What continues to bother me about this study is that the apparent half-lives are so long, seven and 10 days respectively for IM and SC. Is this due to the lack of benzyl alcohol in the XYOSTED product? It's noted that benzyl alcohol improves the absorption rate of a nandrolone ester, so presumably the same applies to testosterone esters. On the other hand, the benzyl alcohol content is pretty low in the standard formulations. The research below also notes that the absorption-enhancing effects of benzyl alcohol are strongest early on, because the alcohol depletes faster than the ester.
The absorption of nandrolone is enhanced by the presence of benzyl alcohol. This is most likely an effect of altered oil viscosity and partition coefficient between the oil and aqueous phase....It appeared that the absorption of nandrolone is enhanced by the presence of benzyl alcohol in the first few days. Subse- quently, upon BOH depletion, a change in absorption of nandrolone is seen.Fundamental understanding of drug absorption from a parenteral oil depot
Oil depots are parenteral drug formulations meant for sustained release of lipophilic compounds. Until now, a comprehensive understanding of the mecha…
From an earlier thread: Is the feeling of "well being" on TRT, dosage dependent?
I have stated in the past that BOH apparently causes a large bolus of the prodrug to be released earlier which was discussed in this paper that I posted in a thread from 2018 but the pdf is missing so you can find it in my post from this thread 2019.
SubQ might not doing it for me
This study had a sample of 3 for IM. Not statistically relevant at all. Plus ask most of the users here. When they double or halved their dosages if their TT doubled and halved as well. It is not linear. You're reading the wrong number. N=10 for IM. What any one individual reports on a forum is...
www.excelmale.com
It is demonstrated in this dissertation that there is a role of the excipient BOH in yielding an initially high absorption.
Unfortunately, a majority of the studies (pharmacokinetics) were done decades ago using strictly IM.
Would be deeply interested in seeing more studies done with the various esters comparing IM vs sub-q.
madman
Super Moderator
NEW INSIGHTS INTO DRUG ABSORPTION FROM OIL DEPOTS
A very interesting read for anyone who wants to develop a better understanding of drug absorption from a parenteral oil depot. Long read but very informative. Spatial distribution of oil depots monitored in human muscle using MRI. The shape and surface areas of oil depots after injection is...
www.excelmale.com
madman
Super Moderator
I have not come across many using cypionate/enanthate that said they can feel the surge in T within 1-2 hrs
Most would tend to feel something much later.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Placebo perhaps!
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it also take sometime for the biological processes to take place to actually feel effects ?
The OP's question was related to the subjective experience. Typically, when I use Xyosted 50mg, 75mg or 100mg, I start to "feel it" about 6-8 hours later. I feel energy and a bit of a rush. Sometimes I start to feel a headache around the same time, and sometimes the headache comes later. They can last a day or two. I have postulated and tested numerous theories on the headaches. I think a lot about oils, esters and metabolites. One theory has been the alcohol content. I have noticed I have less headache problems with Xyosted than I have with enanthate from a multi-use vial (but, I do not have a perfect track record with Xyosted - it's hit or miss, but I can get headaches from it, too). I assumed that the alcohol itself was causing the headaches but, according to what I am reading in this thread, maybe the issue is not alcohol itself, rather the absorption rate. Maybe the unpleasant side effects I experience are related to spikes and Xyosted results in a smoother change in levels compared with a preparation with BOH?
If a spike causes symptoms, then what about the spike is a problem? Absolute T levels, rapid change in T levels, DHT or E2? I don't know, but I suspect it's metabolite related.
Microdosing would seem to address my issues, but I tend to have side effects even with frequent dosing. On the other hand, I have only tried daily dosing for short periods of time with various compounds (propionate, etc). I do think small, frequent dosing has potential to mitigate my side effects. I will likely eventually try it again.
If a spike causes symptoms, then what about the spike is a problem? Absolute T levels, rapid change in T levels, DHT or E2? I don't know, but I suspect it's metabolite related.
Microdosing would seem to address my issues, but I tend to have side effects even with frequent dosing. On the other hand, I have only tried daily dosing for short periods of time with various compounds (propionate, etc). I do think small, frequent dosing has potential to mitigate my side effects. I will likely eventually try it again.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Have you ever had your cortisol levels checked. A friend of mine who is a brilliant kid. Thinks the headaces might have something to do with trt effects on cortisol. I was on a low dose ssri to help with cortisol issues from trt (dr Mariano said they can help) and I didn’t have the headaches I been off them for 2 years and have the same issue with trt and headaches. I’m going to trial low dose ssri again and see if it helps me out. I’ll keep you posted
Interesting thought. I did a saliva test, but don't remember a whole lot about what it showed. Amitriptyline has been shown to reduce migraines, but I believe it is a TCA, not an SSRI. I was on it a while back. Ironically, I think I read something somewhere that it can suppress testosterone, and was one of my theories as to why I became hypogonadic in the first place. Tangentially, I have struggled with the thought that maybe now that I am off that drug and some other medication I was using for migraines, my natural levels might come back up to normal. I have done a few half-assed resets, but none that were legitimate attempts. At this point, I don't even care. I have accepted that I am hypogonadic, regardless of the cause, and am fine treating it. I just need to find the right treatment regimen, but I digress.
Will you post back here if you do this trial?
What are the purported effects of TRT on cortisol? It suppresses or stimulates the adrenals?
As far as I know, the ACTH Stimulation test done at 8 am is the only valid way to assess adrenal function. Randomly checking blood cortisol at any time of the day outside of 8 in the morning or saliva tests are useless.
Most doctors are woefully ignorant about adrenal function and will only diagnose Addison’s Disease, which is a life threatening failure of the adrenals with very low to no cortisol. In fact, I was snapped at and insulted by a senior ER doctor after the 8th time in less than 2 months I brought my father into the emergency department for weakness, fatigue and dehydration and had the temerity to ask about adrenal function.
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