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[Gman86]

I'm on 40mg telmisartan. I may have been wrong about all that personality stuff. I did start it again later that same week. Looking back, I have no idea what was causing what. I'm still having BP spikes (in ER 150/85 and eventually down to 138/85) by those are only what I've seen. Absolutely higher when I'm freaking out. I'm quite sure now though what I'm dealing with is a combination of vitamin D toxicity (not calcium toxicity though), and elevated testosterone.

I'm mimicking exactly today what I did on Friday that resulted in fantastic sleep which was only magnesium, theanine, niacin, fish oil, chamomile, lemon balm and melatonin (this before bed and middle of night, the rest throughout day and night).

I guess I'll have to start testosterone again eventually, but I'm scared to. But I know not enough yet can result in sleep issues too. Last shot was Thursday morning. Good thing I don't feel the same revved up feeling I did as then which also leads me to believe it's linked to vitamin D (my levels have never been this high) but it seems like if I skip a dose, I'll sleep. So maybe the acute dose pushed me over the edge since my levels are so high?

Ya vit d is a tricky one. I’ve listened to some extremely compelling podcasts talking about all oral vit d causing many issues within the body, but there’s so many anecdotes of people taking it orally and feeling better, so idk what to make of vit d atm. I currently just try to use a homemade light setup with UVB bulbs as much as possible and try to get my vit d that way

If ur BP still isn’t where u want it, why not just up ur dose of Telmisartan? Any side effects from the Telmisartan that ur aware of? U also mentioned not experiencing fatigue and dizziness anymore once u stopped it

Have u ever tried using exogenous progesterone while on TRT?

 

[Cataceous]

One more question on the previous thing we were talking about. Let's just say my levels really do swing 100 points in 24 hours. If that's the case, will my levels drop to zero (or whatever bottom is) in 2-3 days then, or is there a trough reserve so to speak where the peak goes really high, but then it'll hang out Stonebridge in the middle for a few days before completely clearing from the system?
...

In theory levels are dropping by the same fraction each day, so never really getting to zero. For example, a one-day half-life means you'd see something like 800 ng/dL, 400, 200, 100, etc. on successive days. If that figure of 1.4 days is correct for your apparent half-life then you'd multiply each day's level by 0.6 to get the next day's number.

...
When I was on 50mg twice per week, I did have tests back then where 24 hours post injection had me almost 1000 total T, and trough was 500.

Interesting. This put's your half-life at 2.5 days. It supports the idea that you absorb testosterone cypionate faster than average.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Ya vit d is a tricky one. I’ve listened to some extremely compelling podcasts talking about all oral vit d causing many issues within the body, but there’s so many anecdotes of people taking it orally and feeling better, so idk what to make of vit d atm. I currently just try to use a homemade light setup with UVB bulbs as much as possible and try to get my vit d that way

If ur BP still isn’t where u want it, why not just up ur dose of Telmisartan? Any side effects from the Telmisartan that ur aware of? U also mentioned not experiencing fatigue and dizziness anymore once u stopped it

Have u ever tried using exogenous progesterone while on TRT?

Well, my BP is all over the place. Just 1 month ago, it was 115/75. The same supplements and stuff I was doing then doesn't work anymore though the same way. I've considered progesterone, but want to get stable first before adding much else, or at least verify that excess vit D is or isn't an issue first. My prog is low, but I kind of doubt all of a sudden it would be the reason for this hell I'm going through.

 

[GreenMachineX]

In theory levels are dropping by the same fraction each day, so never really getting to zero. For example, a one-day half-life means you'd see something like 800 ng/dL, 400, 200, 100, etc. on successive days. If that figure of 1.4 days is correct for your apparent half-life then you'd multiply each day's level by 0.6 to get the next day's number.

Interesting. This put's your half-life at 2.5 days. It supports the idea that you absorb testosterone cypionate faster than average.

This all then would mean daily dosing should be best for me, correct? Just gotta find the right dose...

 

[Gman86]

Well, my BP is all over the place. Just 1 month ago, it was 115/75. The same supplements and stuff I was doing then doesn't work anymore though the same way. I've considered progesterone, but want to get stable first before adding much else, or at least verify that excess vit D is or isn't an issue first. My prog is low, but I kind of doubt all of a sudden it would be the reason for this hell I'm going through.

Makes sense, one thing at a time. Just keep in mind that prog is basically the ultimate stabilizer. It modulates the conversion of test into E2 and DHT, and indirectly modulates prolactin levels. Most likely due to it modulating E2 conversion, and E2 being the main stimulator of prolactin. So if u would possible benefit from higher doses of T, but run into issues when doing so, prog might be the answer to help u tolerate increased androgen levels. My theory is that when we’re young and natural we can tolerate high levels of androgens and feel great because we concurrently have plenty of prog to balance everything. On TRT we shut down our testicles, and the testicles are where most of our prog is produced, which leaves most guys on TRT with low prog levels. Supplementing with HCG and/ or preg can increase prog levels when on TRT, but doesn’t always. But my theory is that one reason guys on TRT have an increased incidence of side effects is because we lack enough prog to balance everything out properly, and then need to rely on compounds like ai’s and 5ar inhibitors to do the job that prog can help with

The other thing to consider, especially when ur dealing with sleep issues, is that Allopregnenolone is synthesized from progesterone, and one of Allopregnenolone’s many functions is that it’s basically the body’s natural Valium or Xanax. It helps keep u calm and relaxed, which can help guys dealing with anxiety issues, and it also helps with sleep. Hence why guys take it before bed. So definitely a hormone to keep in ur toolbox if u just can’t figure out how to feel optimized without it. Just remember that the body likes all hormones to be balanced. It can’t function properly when any hormone is out of balance. So trying to get optimized with low prog levels is fighting an uphill battle, when u don’t have to, imo

 

[GreenMachineX]

Makes sense, one thing at a time. Just keep in mind that prog is basically the ultimate stabilizer. It modulates the conversion of test into E2 and DHT, and indirectly modulates prolactin levels. Most likely due to it modulating E2 conversion, and E2 being the main stimulator of prolactin. So if u would possible benefit from higher doses of T, but run into issues when doing so, prog might be the answer to help u tolerate increased androgen levels. My theory is that when we’re young and natural we can tolerate high levels of androgens and feel great because we concurrently have plenty of prog to balance everything. On TRT we shut down our testicles, and the testicles are where most of our prog is produced, which leaves most guys on TRT with low prog levels. Supplementing with HCG and/ or preg can increase prog levels when on TRT, but doesn’t always. But my theory is that one reason guys on TRT have an increased incidence of side effects is because we lack enough prog to balance everything out properly, and then need to rely on compounds like ai’s and 5ar inhibitors to do the job that prog can help with

The other thing to consider, especially when ur dealing with sleep issues, is that Allopregnenolone is synthesized from progesterone, and one of Allopregnenolone’s many functions is that it’s basically the body’s natural Valium or Xanax. It helps keep u calm and relaxed, which can help guys dealing with anxiety issues, and it also helps with sleep. Hence why guys take it before bed. So definitely a hormone to keep in ur toolbox if u just can’t figure out how to feel optimized without it. Just remember that the body likes all hormones to be balanced. It can’t function properly when any hormone is out of balance. So trying to get optimized with low prog levels is fighting an uphill battle, when u don’t have to, imo

Makes sense. Is prog something a doctor prescribes? I think I've seen online creams and such.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Makes sense, one thing at a time. Just keep in mind that prog is basically the ultimate stabilizer. It modulates the conversion of test into E2 and DHT, and indirectly modulates prolactin levels. Most likely due to it modulating E2 conversion, and E2 being the main stimulator of prolactin. So if u would possible benefit from higher doses of T, but run into issues when doing so, prog might be the answer to help u tolerate increased androgen levels. My theory is that when we’re young and natural we can tolerate high levels of androgens and feel great because we concurrently have plenty of prog to balance everything. On TRT we shut down our testicles, and the testicles are where most of our prog is produced, which leaves most guys on TRT with low prog levels. Supplementing with HCG and/ or preg can increase prog levels when on TRT, but doesn’t always. But my theory is that one reason guys on TRT have an increased incidence of side effects is because we lack enough prog to balance everything out properly, and then need to rely on compounds like ai’s and 5ar inhibitors to do the job that prog can help with

The other thing to consider, especially when ur dealing with sleep issues, is that Allopregnenolone is synthesized from progesterone, and one of Allopregnenolone’s many functions is that it’s basically the body’s natural Valium or Xanax. It helps keep u calm and relaxed, which can help guys dealing with anxiety issues, and it also helps with sleep. Hence why guys take it before bed. So definitely a hormone to keep in ur toolbox if u just can’t figure out how to feel optimized without it. Just remember that the body likes all hormones to be balanced. It can’t function properly when any hormone is out of balance. So trying to get optimized with low prog levels is fighting an uphill battle, when u don’t have to, imo

I went back to look at my prog labs. My result was <0.5, and apparently optimal is 0.2 - 0.9. So I have no idea if my results are low or good.

 

[Gman86]

I went back to look at my prog labs. My result was <0.5, and apparently optimal is 0.2 - 0.9. So I have no idea if my results are low or good.

God, I HATE when labs don’t do a range and just to < a certain number. So annoying! But ya ur obv low. Best case scenario ur at 0.4, but most likely a little lower. No way to know how low tho obv. It’s a tight range, so people have different opinions on what’s optimal. Here’s a video where the guy thinks around 1.2 is optimal. We’d probably have to see prog labs done on men in their prime to really know what level is good for most men.

 

[Gman86]

Makes sense. Is prog something a doctor prescribes? I think I've seen online creams and such.

Yup, I get mine prescribed through Defy, and filled through Empower compounding pharmacy. They have both their own compounded injectable prog and pharma brand injectable prog. I use the pharma brand because the concentration is lower and it’s easier to measure in the syringe. I highly recommend injectable prog if ur going to use it. We pretty much have the dosages down that correlate with specific blood levels. Not an exact science obv, but I think we have it figured out a lot better than any other form of prog. I inject it subQ before bed every night

I think the creams work if u don’t want to go through a doctor and get it prescribed. I just have no clue what amount of OTC prog cream one would need to get specific blood levels of prog

 

[GreenMachineX]

Yup, I get mine prescribed through Defy, and filled through Empower compounding pharmacy. They have both their own compounded injectable prog and pharma brand injectable prog. I use the pharma brand because the concentration is lower and it’s easier to measure in the syringe. I highly recommend injectable prog if ur going to use it. We pretty much have the dosages down that correlate with specific blood levels. Not an exact science obv, but I think we have it figured out a lot better than any other form of prog. I inject it subQ before bed every night

I think the creams work if u don’t want to go through a doctor and get it prescribed. I just have no clue what amount of OTC prog cream one would need to get specific blood levels of prog

Gotcha, thanks. I'll ask my doctor to test for it again with a different lab and see what happens. I'm also going to get a referral to an endo for my TRT continued treatment. I really have a hard time believing though that after 8 years of TRT, I suddenly need prog to sleep. I did have it tested like 5 years ago and it was low then too, so I doubt it's that keeping me awake for 36 hours at a time. Nevertheless, good thing to move forward with for optimal TRT after I beat this insomnia.

 

[Gman86]

Gotcha, thanks. I'll ask my doctor to test for it again with a different lab and see what happens. I'm also going to get a referral to an endo for my TRT continued treatment. I really have a hard time believing though that after 8 years of TRT, I suddenly need prog to sleep. I did have it tested like 5 years ago and it was low then too, so I doubt it's that keeping me awake for 36 hours at a time. Nevertheless, good thing to move forward with for optimal TRT after I beat this insomnia.

Ur insomnia issue isn’t due to one thing, that’s not how the body works. I think in ur case prog will just tie up quite a few things and make it easier for u to dial in everything and hopefully resolve the issues that continue to bother u. I would personally implement prog asap if I were in ur shoes, but I respect ur decision to wait if that’s what u want to do

 

[GreenMachineX]

Ur insomnia issue isn’t due to one thing, that’s not how the body works. I think in ur case prog will just tie up quite a few things and make it easier for u to dial in everything and hopefully resolve the issues that continue to bother u. I would personally implement prog asap if I were in ur shoes, but I respect ur decision to wait if that’s what u want to do

True, but I'm also limited by insurance and speed of doctors, and cost if I wanted to go outside insurance.

But, if I were to go with Defy, from setting an appointment, how quickly could I get to getting prog in my hand?

 

[Gman86]

True, but I'm also limited by insurance and speed of doctors, and cost if I wanted to go outside insurance.

But, if I were to go with Defy, from setting an appointment, how quickly could I get to getting prog in my hand?

Definitely things to consider. I pay out of pocket and the prog ends up being extremely cheap because the same bottle lasts forever

I would say u should be able to get an appt in a week or two, possibly sooner depending who u see during ur consult. U just need labs that are less than 3 months old and a recent physical. But they prescribe meds during ur consult, so the whole process wouldn’t take too long. But idk if I’d go through all that just to get on prog. But I guess it would probably be pretty hard to have ur primary doc agree to prescribe it to u

 

[GreenMachineX]

Definitely things to consider. I pay out of pocket and the prog ends up being extremely cheap because the same bottle lasts forever

I would say u should be able to get an appt in a week or two, possibly sooner depending who u see during ur consult. U just need labs that are less than 3 months old and a recent physical. But they prescribe meds during ur consult, so the whole process wouldn’t take too long. But idk if I’d go through all that just to get on prog. But I guess it would probably be pretty hard to have ur primary doc agree to prescribe it to u

Is there any chance prog would cause me to have a overstimulated reaction, or is it pretty certain it's basically a downer?

 

[Gman86]

Is there any chance prog would cause me to have a overstimulated reaction, or is it pretty certain it's basically a downer?

It’s definitely not a downer, but I know what ur saying. Ime it helps keep me calm and comfortable in social situations, and just not feel nervous or anxious in general. If anything I’ve had more energy everyday since starting it again. But a nice clean energy. Not a hyped up or jittery energy like someone might get from a stimulant like caffeine, for example. I can’t see why it would potentially cause an overstimulated reaction, based on what prog does within the body

 

[GreenMachineX]

It’s definitely not a downer, but I know what ur saying. Ime it helps keep me calm and comfortable in social situations, and just not feel nervous or anxious in general. If anything I’ve had more energy everyday since starting it again. But a nice clean energy. Not a hyped up or jittery energy like someone might get from a stimulant like caffeine, for example. I can’t see why it would potentially cause an overstimulated reaction, based on what prog does within the body

Gotcha. Because it seems like too much test, dhea, preg, and e2 all can make me overstimulated. Well, not exactly sure about the preg, but I've read enough reports of it.

I do have preg caps and sublingual. Any chance they could provide the prog I need? Which form if so?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Well, skipping too many days of testosterone was a bad move. Day 2 wise awake, only 30 minutes sleep accompanied by a familiar inner "buzz" or something that I recall from the last time I took my dose too low (16mg EOD) and had terrible insomnia and buzzing. I'm guessing it's cortisol pumping hard but I don't know.

I did 4mg before bed last night out of fear, but in the morning I'll go up to 6mg and resume 6mg daily in the morning. Also took 5mg dhea a little bit ago and will resume that and probably work back up to 15mg Sublingual since I know those levels are shot.

I just need to make it to Tuesday doctor appointment before I lose my mind so I can ask for sleep pills.

 

[Cataceous]

This all then would mean daily dosing should be best for me, correct? Just gotta find the right dose...

Yes, daily probably is best. Then you'll also achieve a daily rhythm somewhat like men have naturally.

 

[Gman86]

Gotcha. Because it seems like too much test, dhea, preg, and e2 all can make me overstimulated. Well, not exactly sure about the preg, but I've read enough reports of it.

I do have preg caps and sublingual. Any chance they could provide the prog I need? Which form if so?

Ya there’s a chance preg can increase prog levels. It’s definitely one of the pathways it can go down. Preg is just so hit or miss since it can effect so many diffent hormone pathways, and we just don’t know to what degree it’s gonna effect each pathway in each individual. I would personally stick to supplementing with straight progesterone in ur personal case. But if u already have some preg at home I guess u could try experimenting with it and see how it goes

 

[GreenMachineX]

Update here: I think I eventually got 4-5 blocks of 30 minutes sleep, most of which occurred after 5am. Decided I'm going to stick to night dosing and will likely do 6mg tonight. Took another 5mg dhea when I woke up. Hopefully I can get a nap in later today.