New Labs and Estradiol Levels

[Mando]

I have a couple sets of labs I would like to get some comments on from you guys.
My regimen is 150 mg testosterone cypionate weekly. Inject half M a.m. and half Thur p.m.
First labs were IM and second were SQ.
Any feedback you guys have I would appreciate.

Thanks.

 

[MarkM]

When were your labs pulled compared to your injections? Looks like you have the wrong Estradiol test based off the reference range you have posted. You need the Estradiol Sensitive test, LC/MS/MS assay. The one you took is for women. It normally produces a higher result than the Estradiol Sensitive, that being said, your Estradiol Sensitive looks like it may be extremely low. Are you taking an AI?

 

[Mando]

When were your labs pulled compared to your injections? Looks like you have the wrong Estradiol test based off the reference range you have posted. You need the Estradiol Sensitive test, LC/MS/MS assay. The one you took is for women. It normally produces a higher result than the Estradiol Sensitive, that being said, your Estradiol Sensitive looks like it may be extremely low. Are you taking an AI?

Lab was pulled Mon morning prior to injection.

This was the test that was ran; it is the sensitive lab:
https://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/84230

I am not taking an AI.

Only difference was IM on prior test vs SQ on current test.

Thanks.

 

[Vince]

Your protocol is 75 mg of testosterone cypionate twice a week. It's a pretty simple protocol, I thought you levels would be higher. How are you feeling?

 

[Mando]

Your protocol is 75 mg of testosterone cypionate twice a week. It's a pretty simple protocol, I thought you levels would be higher. How are you feeling?

With the SQ compared to IM it feels like I did not have as much energy on SQ. Attitude, libido, erection quality, etc. is OK

But with SQ vs IM, after approx 3 month I can say that it seems like the energy is lacking. I was just shocked at the difference in estradiol.

Going from above the high end of the estradiol range to < 10. I thought that would be considered "tanking my estradiol".

I have felt a little off this week, starting on Tues had slight sore throat. Feel better today. I was wondering if maybe having my blood drawn on Monday that maybe I was getting sick and it could have skewed my estradiol numbers?

I also have a gym routing of 3 days per week that I started 3 weeks ago. It is not super intense, but was wondering if that could affect T or estradiol levels?

 

[Vince]

Have you ever considered adding HCG to your trt protocol. It definitely would raise your estradiol levels if you were secondary hypogonadism

 

[Vince Carter]

When you varied from IM to SQ you made a new variable and wrecked being able to compare the two sets of labs, side-by-side. Though such a dramatic difference is indicative of lab error and I would ignore the second set and retest. Consistency is crucial if you want to compare things. Same lab, same time of day, shots same time of day, etc etc

 

[Mando]

When you varied from IM to SQ you made a new variable and wrecked being able to compare the two sets of labs, side-by-side. Though such a dramatic difference is indicative of lab error and I would ignore the second set and retest. Consistency is crucial if you want to compare things. Same lab, same time of day, shots same time of day, etc etc

Yes I understand that IM to SQ added a new variable. I was just hoping to be able to move from IM to SQ. I figured an approximate 3 month span of time on SQ should have given me a good comparison of how my body would handle SQ vs IM.

I agree that the second set looks suspect.

All other things that you mentioned were the same, lab, time of day, shots same time of day, etc.

 

[HealthMan]

Yes I understand that IM to SQ added a new variable. I was just hoping to be able to move from IM to SQ. I figured an approximate 3 month span of time on SQ should have given me a good comparison of how my body would handle SQ vs IM.

I agree that the second set looks suspect.

All other things that you mentioned were the same, lab, time of day, shots same time of day, etc.

Subq tanked my testosterone and estradiol levels compared to IM injections. Not unheard of. I also didn’t feel as nearly as good on subq compared to IM. Just stick to what was working for you and switch back to IM. Subq usually aromatized much less than IM in theory because of slower release of testosterone. A lot of guys here experienced a lowering in estradiol when switching to Subq. Actually a lot people try switching to subq as a strategy to lower E2.

 

[Mando]

Subq tanked my testosterone and estradiol levels compared to IM injections. Not unheard of. I also didn’t feel as nearly as good on subq compared to IM. Just stick to what was working for you and switch back to IM. Subq usually aromatized much less than IM in theory because of slower release of testosterone. A lot of guys here experienced a lowering in estradiol when switching to Subq. Actually a lot people try switching to subq as a strategy to lower E2.

Thanks. This is the feedback I was hoping to hear because I was curious if others had experienced this tanking of estradiol with SQ.
I did try the SQ because I had read of the possibility of lowering estradiol. But when I got these last labs I was shocked since it was below the low of the range while last time it was above the high.
Do you recall how much SQ affected your estradiol levels?

 

[HealthMan]

Thanks. This is the feedback I was hoping to hear because I was curious if others had experienced this tanking of estradiol with SQ.
I did try the SQ because I had read of the possibility of lowering estradiol. But when I got these last labs I was shocked since it was below the low of the range while last time it was above the high.
Do you recall how much SQ affected your estradiol levels?

My E2 went from mid-high 20s to mid-high 10s and I had increased the dosage when i switched from IM to Subq. My total testosterone dropped ~ 150-200 despite increasing my dosage. I switched back to IM and everything went back to normal. You drop in estradiol is indeed a bit extreme so maybe a lab error there. But regards you were feeling better and your numbers looked better on IM. So i would simply switch back to IM and retest in 8 weeks before considering changing anything else

 

[Blackhawk]

Mando, Everyone's case is unique. Mine too: I have been on SubQ pretty much the whole time I have been injecting, with the exception of the first 5 or so shots IM none of which went well.

My numbers tell my story which is a stark contrast to Healthman. At 150mg/week E3D I was supraphysiological and Hematocrit became a problem. Subsequently lowered dosage 3-4 times. I was on E3D but was having high E2 symptoms E3D as well. Now on 84 mg/week, 24 mg EOD. My total T is over 1000 and E2 still running over desired levels, so started small dose AI. All while on SubQ. No lack of efficacy or aromatizing here.

All I am saying is because one person reacts a certain way to medication, different doses, timing, methods of injection etc, does not mean you will react the same. You have to findout what works in your own case by trying different options. The issue of patience can be maddening since every change means another 6-8 weeks before subsequent testing...

 

[HealthMan]

Mando, Everyone's case is unique. Mine too: I have been on SubQ pretty much the whole time I have been injecting, with the exception of the first 5 or so shots IM none of which went well.

My numbers tell my story which is a stark contrast to Healthman. At 150mg/week E3D I was supraphysiological and Hematocrit became a problem. Subsequently lowered dosage 3-4 times. I was on E3D but was having high E2 symptoms E3D as well. Now on 84 mg/week, 24 mg EOD. My total T is over 1000 and E2 still running over desired levels, so started small dose AI. All while on SubQ. No lack of efficacy or aromatizing here.

All I am saying is because one person reacts a certain way to medication, different doses, timing, methods of injection etc, does not mean you will react the same. You have to findout what works in your own case by trying different options. The issue of patience can be maddening since every change means another 6-8 weeks before subsequent testing...

And there are some cases where TT increases when moving from IM to SUBQ. Everyone is different and with TRT thats verg true. On some subjects we can give higher probabilities to certain outcomes on other it is like tosing a coin. Go by how you feel and use labs as a guide is the way to go!

 

[Mando]

Mando, Everyone's case is unique. Mine too: I have been on SubQ pretty much the whole time I have been injecting, with the exception of the first 5 or so shots IM none of which went well.

My numbers tell my story which is a stark contrast to Healthman. At 150mg/week E3D I was supraphysiological and Hematocrit became a problem. Subsequently lowered dosage 3-4 times. I was on E3D but was having high E2 symptoms E3D as well. Now on 84 mg/week, 24 mg EOD. My total T is over 1000 and E2 still running over desired levels, so started small dose AI. All while on SubQ. No lack of efficacy or aromatizing here.

All I am saying is because one person reacts a certain way to medication, different doses, timing, methods of injection etc, does not mean you will react the same. You have to findout what works in your own case by trying different options. The issue of patience can be maddening since every change means another 6-8 weeks before subsequent testing...

I was thinking of continuing SQ for a while longer even though my Total T went down. Because I am not sure if the estradiol being <10 this time and 41 prior was a bad lab. I'm sort of torn by which way to go, stick with SQ or go back to IM.
Would like to get your guys thoughts about continuing to give SQ a shot and seeing if the last estradiol lab was a fluke.

 

[madman]

I was thinking of continuing SQ for a while longer even though my Total T went down. Because I am not sure if the estradiol being <10 this time and 41 prior was a bad lab. I'm sort of torn by which way to go, stick with SQ or go back to IM.
Would like to get your guys thoughts about continuing to give SQ a shot and seeing if the last estradiol lab was a fluke.

Your TT is only 90.6 ng/dL difference between i.m. vs sub-q.....hardly drastic, and again FT is what you should be worrying about.....not TT!

 

[HealthMan]

You said you felt better with IM so I would just switch back to IM if I were you. But if you wanna give Subq more time get another set of labs done and check E2. If indeed that low you need to something... add HCG, add DHEA or increase testosterone dosage

 

[Gman86]

Me personally, I would stick with SQ for one more set of labs. I’d do it just to see if that E2 was a lab error or not. With an E2 that low, obviously you’re not going to feel good. Up your dose, which will obviously up your E2, and see if you feel any better.

I’d give it one more shot because SQ is much easier than IM in my opinion, plus if SQ really does minimize E2 conversion as much as your labs are saying, you’ll never need an AI, which is huge! Lastly I like to experiment with myself to see what works best. So the little scientist in me would 100% stick with SQ for one more set of labs. That’s just me though.