Levels TT / FT / SHBG before starting TRT

[Frizzle]

Hi guys, ​

In Oktober I’m planning to go on TRT after my consultation with dr. Robert Stevens. His ‘golden standard protocol’ consists of daily injections of testosterone cypionate with HCG alongside to get you in the high normal range.

In Europe low-t symptoms will often not be treated if T-levels are above 300 Ng/Dl. My T-levels have been tested at 350-400 (44 years old, eating healthy, very fit low BF), still I have all the low T symptoms. I have to add my SHBG sits around 40, so free T is also low.

I was just wondering, for those on TRT, what were your TT / FT and SHBG levels prior to starting TRT and what is your opinion on starting with TRT with ‘in range levels’. And what has TRT done for you.

 

[Systemlord]

The medical societies around the world can’t agree on where the cut off for low T is, but data does exist that shows where all the disease of aging starts as a result of poor health and or subpar hormones levels.

Testosterone Level: How Low is Too Low? Health Consequences of Low Testosterone

I was able to summarize all available studies on testosterone blood levels and how they are linked to several health issues. I will add references soon. Low Blood Levels of Testosterone and Associated Risks: < 450 ng/dl (15.3 nmol/l) - Risk of metabolic syndrome Reference: Dhindsa, S...

www.excelmale.com

https://www.myhormonetherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/The-Testosterone-Controversy-by-Faloon.pdf

Testosterone Threshold for Increased Cardiovascular Risk in Middle-Aged and Elderly Men: A Locally Weighted Regression Analysis

ABSTRACTIntroduction. Although testosterone deficiency has a well-known association with increased risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD), the threshold rema

academic.oup.com

And what has TRT done for you.

It’s practically pointless comparing other’s experience and try to equate that to what you might expect out of T therapy. Individual response to T therapy is greatly varied, no two people’s response to therapy are identical.

My advice, tame your expectations. TRT is not a panacea.

I also don’t agree with starting everyone out on hCG, which can present with it’s own set of side effects.

 

[seppuku]

Hi guys, ​

In Oktober I’m planning to go on TRT after my consultation with dr. Robert Stevens. His ‘golden standard protocol’ consists of daily injections of testosterone cypionate with HCG alongside to get you in the high normal range.

In Europe low-t symptoms will often not be treated if T-levels are above 300 Ng/Dl. My T-levels have been tested at 350-400 (44 years old, eating healthy, very fit low BF), still I have all the low T symptoms. I have to add my SHBG sits around 40, so free T is also low.

I was just wondering, for those on TRT, what were your TT / FT and SHBG levels prior to starting TRT and what is your opinion on starting with TRT with ‘in range levels’. And what has TRT done for you.

So it sounds like you're in the U.K if you're going through Dr Stevens, and your readings were between 12 and 14 nmol/l? I'm also in the U.K, early 50's. For several years, my total testosterone was coming back at an average 8 nmol/l, so approx 230 ng/dl. I put myself on diy trt last year in September, starting off on 120mg test e a week, split into two injections (Sun am / Wed pm). After 8 weeks i had blood taken, a 3.5 day trough reading, and i was way over range in both total and free. My e2 was very high also. I dropped down to 48mg twice a week, and blood results are better. Shbg always about mid range. My honest thoughts right now are that although i'm glad i've done this, i 'probably' would have increased my natural levels by just losing weight. I'd been on a permanent bulk to help strength in the gym for over 20 years, and have only addressed this recently because i can't get hip surgery till my bmi is lower. As to what the increased testosterone has done for me (last reading was 24.9 nmol/l total, free test 0.535 nmol/l so 718 ng/dl total, 15 ng/dl free), it's subtle. I haven't started up any businesses and made a fortune, it hasn't burnt all my body fat off me without dieting, and my sex drive is about the same (it was always high, and performance was ok even at 8 nmol/l). Like i said, i believe i've done the right thing, and i've no current intentions of coming off. I believe it's unhealthy to have low t, and, other than losing weight (which i should have done first), nothing else was increasing my levels. But my advice would be, make sure that whatever symptoms you have, that you believe are due to low testosterone, are not actually something else. As you're probably aware, the nhs wouldn't touch you with a barge pole with those starting levels, and you might notice nothing from even doubling them. Then again though, who knows, you might. I'd just make sure it's not a stress / sleep / diet / relationship problem causing your symptoms first before taking the plunge. Oh, and the Leger Clinic are much cheaper than Dr Stevens clinic.

 

[Belekas]

Remember that being very lean and fit will tank your T as well. Been there done that. Been an athlete for the last 17 years. Had low T symptoms as well. Tested through Optimale and was around 12 nmol/L for TT and pretty much below range on the calculated FT. Decided to tick all boxes and try to raise it naturally so began eating in surplus and more freely, enjoying life, took some Boron, Zinc, etc, and done that for a couple months IIRC. Also increased my sleep as I was working few hours every night. Gained weight, pressed my NHS docs, showed them Optimales test result and they agreed to run their own blood test so saved some money. Result came back at sub 17 nmol/L for TT and barely in range calculated FT. So basically FT didn't increase. Obviously these levels were good for the NHS and sayonara. My libido was good, I was feeling good in all departments pretty much but had some bone/joint pain. Decided to run my own TRT to see if raising FT will give me some benefits. So 8 months down the line @ 100mg/week I tested top of the range TT at 29.2 nmol/L and calculated FT 0.62 nmol/L

I like the extra energy and aesthetics, muscles look better, gym is more fun, recovery still similar, but mind you I have other gut issues, so hard to judge yet. Libido pretty much the same. Feels like cognitive functions declined some, more anxiety as well. But all that can be from my gut issues so also too early to judge fully. So far still working on fixing everything and then will make a final decision to keep it or get off and enjoy my life naturally for another 10-20 years. And then look again as we will have a lot more data and real life results since we still pretty much in the dark with many TRT aspects FWIW.

So even with crashed FT I was feeling good, looking good and cool, calm and collected. But get down to very low %BF, stay there too long and you will feel like a piece of shit. Thats a fact, unless you still young and genetically gifted to thrive as some young guys I've seen. And remember that TRT is very individual and everyones milage will be different. My recommendations would be to eat up, put on some weight, relax, rest more, eat more good food, give some time and then see how you feel and if your symptoms get better.

Best of luck with whatever your decision will be.

 

[Frizzle]

Thanks guys, this is some really good advice. I’ve thought about getting on T for a long time, before I planned my consultation. I know my TT and FT are on the low side, but ‘the million dollar question is’ do they contribute to my symptoms or is it something else. So I will give TRT some time and see if the benefits outweigh the downsides. In that respect I don’t expect too much, I just have to give it a chance to find out and see.

I chose dr. Stevens because he seems to be very competent and experienced regarding TRT.

 

[Charliebizz]

Thanks guys, this is some really good advice. I’ve thought about getting on T for a long time, before I planned my consultation. I know my TT and FT are on the low side, but ‘the million dollar question is’ do they contribute to my symptoms or is it something else. So I will give TRT some time and see if the benefits outweigh the downsides. In that respect I don’t expect too much, I just have to give it a chance to find out and see.

I chose dr. Stevens because he seems to be very competent and experienced regarding TRT.

take this for what it’s worth. But I been around the trt game for over 15 years. De stevens seems like another self proclaimed guru. Making desperate men believe he’s some specialist. starting guys off with hcg and a.I is a big red flag. Unless you’re truly concerned with fertility. More often than not hcg just complicates matters. And chasing all these exotic protocols is a recipe for disaster. i personally Think everyone should start out on testosterone only. And try to push levels to where they get symptom relief but keeping all other markers in a healthy place. It really should be that simple. All thes clinics and you tube drs are just muddying the waters to make a dollar. Especially these clinics with membership fees and such.

 

[TLR]

I’ll keep this simple. If your libido and erections are satisfactory I would explore ALL options for any other symptoms (sleep apnea, vitamin deficiencies, overtraining etc.) before taking the plunge. It has been good for me in terms of metabolic health markers / maintaining body composition and conditioning for a man my age. HOWEVER, it has also not been the fountain of youth I expected and it exacerbated pre existing anxiety. Don’t be too quick to take the plunge until you have explored other avenues.

 

[Frizzle]

I’ll keep this simple. If your libido and erections are satisfactory I would explore ALL options for any other symptoms (sleep apnea, vitamin deficiencies, overtraining etc.) before taking the plunge. It has been good for me in terms of metabolic health markers / maintaining body composition and conditioning for a man my age. HOWEVER, it has also not been the fountain of youth I expected and it exacerbated pre existing anxiety. Don’t be too quick to take the plunge until you have explored other avenues.

Thanks for posting your precautions, I’ll certainly take them in consideration with respect to my final decision ‘To TRT’ or ‘Not to TRT’. Unfortunately I already explored several improvement routes in terms of lifestyle, excercise, bodyweight / bodyfat / diet. My testosterone sits on the low side of normal with 370-400 Ng/DL and a free testosterone that is about 6,5 Ng/DL. If I decide to give it a go, I hope the pros outweigh the cons for me. Most important for me is to, be able to function well (as a parent and in my profession) and it would ben nice to have a somewhat higher libido (I can keep an erection if my sex drive is sufficient). Unfortunately my situation is too unsatisfactory to do nothing.

 

[Frizzle]

take this for what it’s worth. But I been around the trt game for over 15 years. De stevens seems like another self proclaimed guru. Making desperate men believe he’s some specialist. starting guys off with hcg and a.I is a big red flag. Unless you’re truly concerned with fertility. More often than not hcg just complicates matters. And chasing all these exotic protocols is a recipe for disaster. i personally Think everyone should start out on testosterone only. And try to push levels to where they get symptom relief but keeping all other markers in a healthy place. It really should be that simple. All thes clinics and you tube drs are just muddying the waters to make a dollar. Especially these clinics with membership fees and such.

I see your point, and it’s true that dr. Stevens his ‘gold standard’ approach is HCG with testosterone from the start, preferably without an AI. I do think his approach is common sense for as far as I can judge it. As in mimicking the hormonal pattern with daily injections, to take the least amount of exogenous hormones to maintain other important health parameters in check and try to achieve good inter-hormonal ratios of testosterone / dht / estrogen.

 

[TLR]

Thanks for posting your precautions, I’ll certainly take them in consideration with respect to my final decision ‘To TRT’ or ‘Not to TRT’. Unfortunately I already explored several improvement routes in terms of lifestyle, excercise, bodyweight / bodywarmer / diet. My testosterone sits on the low side of normal with 370-400 Ng/DL and a free testosterone that is about 6,5 Ng/DL. If I decide to give it a go, I hope the pros outweigh the cons for me. Most important for me is to, be able to function well (as a parent and in my profession) and it would ben nice to have a somewhat higher libido (I can keep an erection if my sex drive is sufficient). Unfortunately my situation is too unsatisfactory to do nothing.

This is my other piece of advice….if it does not seem to help and / or creates issues for you, DO NOT wait too long to start a proper recovery protocol. You ll know within 6-9 months if it’s for you if you start low and go slow…the older we get and the longer we are shut down the harder it is to recover (take it from me).

 

[Frizzle]

Thanks for your advice, it’s highly appreciated!

 

[Charliebizz]

I see your point, and it’s true that dr. Stevens his ‘gold standard’ approach is HCG with testosterone from the start, preferably without an AI. I do think his approach is common sense for as far as I can judge it. As in mimicking the hormonal pattern with daily injections, to take the least amount of exogenous hormones to maintain other important health parameters in check and try to achieve good inter-hormonal ratios of testosterone / dht / estrogen.

Daily injections in no way “ mimic“ natural hormonal rhythms. Also hcg is an lh “mimic“ another thing that is completely unnatural

 

[Forty2]

Hi guys, ​

In Oktober I’m planning to go on TRT after my consultation with dr. Robert Stevens.

That's your first mistake!

 

[tareload]

I was just wondering, for those on TRT, what were your TT / FT and SHBG levels prior to starting TRT and what is your opinion on starting with TRT with ‘in range levels’. And what has TRT done for you.

5.5 years on TRT with similar baseline numbers as you. Still have same symptoms and now carry around another 25 lb of muscle at same 8 to 10% BF. Heart scare along the way so now I am in the polypharmacy game with SSRI and ever creeping Test dose. It has further exacerbated my body dysmorphia and gateway to more androgens. Should never have started but too late now. Get bigger and vein-ier/vain-ier or die trying.

No going back once you have ridden the T train if you love the iron and have addictive personality. Be careful what you wish for...you may just get it.

 

[Systemlord]

I do think his approach is common sense for as far as I can judge it.

If you start out all men on hCG, a good portion of those guys are going to end up with problems and will need to stop it. Adding things as needed is a more logical approach.

 

[Charliebizz]

If you start out all men on hCG, a good portion of those guys are going to end up with problems and will need to stop it. Adding things as needed is a more logical approach.

Exactly. and if you run into sides out of the gate the more likely you’re going to try all sorts of exotic protocols to try and mitigate sides. Just keep it simple. You don’t need some you tube guru dr. Just find a dr that is willing to perscribe testosterone and flexible with dosing schedule.

 

[Belekas]

5.5 years on TRT with similar baseline numbers as you. Still have same symptoms and now carry around another 25 lb of muscle at same 8 to 10% BF. Heart scare along the way so now I am in the polypharmacy game with SSRI and ever creeping Test dose. It has further exacerbated my body dysmorphia and gateway to more androgens. Should never have started but too late now. Get bigger and vein-ier/vain-ier or die trying.

No going back once you have ridden the T train if you love the iron and have addictive personality. Be careful what you wish for...you may just get it.

One of the best posts and should be made sticky. Couldn't have said it better. Addiction is real and if you love iron like we do- the darkness is coming for you too. It even rhymed lol Coupled with addictive personality- it's game time.

 

[Charliebizz]

One of the best posts and should be made sticky. Couldn't have said it better. Addiction is real and if you love iron like we do- the darkness is coming for you too. It even rhymed lol Coupled with addictive personality- it's game time.

Or you could be an overweight slob and have all the inevitable illnesses coming at you full force lol. Pick your poison!!!

 

[tareload]

Or you could be an overweight slob and have all the inevitable illnesses coming at you full force lol. Pick your poison!!!

Been there too! Can't seem to find middle ground. Ymmv.

Well I did find the middle ground then got the T!

 

[TLR]

Been there too! Can't seem to find middle ground. Ymmv.

Well I did find the middle ground then got the T!

I’ve kicked my own ass in my mind 2 dozen times for not being more proactive in researching things 12 years ago before I joined up for life…I don’t know how much difference it would have made, but I was going through a lot of family shit and just came through a divorce and was eating like shit, not sleeping much, drinking more than I should…I tell myself I’d have probably ended up on it eventually anyway because half the people I know and work with are on the needle…toothpaste is out of the tube now!