Is there any reason HCG could be making someone feel bad besides E2?

[buffaloraptor]

Just curious if there is a pathway for this to be possible, or if it's always related to E2 and it's swings. I have seen threads where guys drop it from not feeling well but many of them had problems controlling E2.

I feel better when I initially add it, but then it seems like E2 goes high. I am secondary so I definitely respond to HCG. I would like to add it to my protocol and not opposed to using an AI at a low dose, but want to make sure that there is nothing else to watch out for with HCG like if it can mess up thyroid or progesterone or something else.

 

[Cataceous]

There are LH receptors—which also respond to hCG—in many locations in the body aside from the testes, including "seminal vesicles, prostate, skin, breast, adrenals, thyroid, neural retina, neuroendocrine cells, and (rat) brain." Wikipedia notes "...the physiologic role of some has remained largely unexplored." Therefore it's plausible that hCG could create issues apart from its effect on estradiol.

 

[MikeXL]

There are LH receptors—which also respond to hCG—in many locations in the body aside from the testes, including "seminal vesicles, prostate, skin, breast, adrenals, thyroid, neural retina, neuroendocrine cells, and (rat) brain." Wikipedia notes "...the physiologic role of some has remained largely unexplored." Therefore it's plausible that hCG could create issues apart from its effect on estradiol.

But i guess that would be a matter of modulating the dose

 

[Charliebizz]

So how do you guys truly feel about trt only long term. Like what cat just posted are any of you guys worried long term having no lh or lh mimic. I also seem to not be able to tolerate hcg.

 

[S1W]

So how do you guys truly feel about trt only long term. Like what cat just posted are any of you guys worried long term having no lh or lh mimic. I also seem to not be able to tolerate hcg.

I'm on a T only protocol. If I'm being honest, I worry a bit both ways - both about the long-term effects of not having LH and about the long-term effects of using HCG.

I know that HCG use is becoming more and more common in TRT, but I worried about potential desensitization issues. That combined with the fact that I simply feel better without it led to me choosing to drop it.

It seems that men have not been using HCG long enough to know what, if any, the long-term consequences might be. Maybe some doses are totally safe and others are not...doesn't seem like anyone knows.

With T only, there are many established cases of men using TRT doses, quitting, and returning back to baseline. So that seemed like the less risky option for me, at least for now. If in 5 or 10 years I'm still on TRT and plan to continue for the rest of my life, I will revisit the issue then.

 

[Charliebizz]

I do not want to derail this thread but just hearing a few things some of the top docs say about the need for backfilling and all the other things that get slowed down from being on trt is a little worrisome. But if it’s really helping you know it’s kind of worth the risk. For me trt has very very minor positive effects. So I do not know if it’s worth it.

Back to the original topic. When I use hcg with trt it doesn’t feel like typical high e2 symptoms for me I just feel very low energy on it.

 

[Vince Carter]

There are some other hormonal pathways that exist thru the stim of the testes, not just Estrogen, but it's E that would typically be the culprit for not feeling well. That's the common guess anyway as no one can say or know for sure.
For some the typical 250iu EOD or 500iu twice per week is just too much. You can always try 100iu daily if you can tolerate the daily injections.

 

[torrential]

I know that HCG use is becoming more and more common in TRT, but I worried about potential desensitization issues. That combined with the fact that I simply feel better without it led to me choosing to drop it.

It seems that men have not been using HCG long enough to know what, if any, the long-term consequences might be. Maybe some doses are totally safe and others are not..doesn't seem like anyone knows.

Let me stop you right there, partner. With all the noise out there, it's not so easy to distinguish opinion from fact. Here are a couple of facts that sometimes get lost:

- There is no evidence of Leydig cell desensitization in human males from HCG use. None. Nada. Nothing. There was a poorly run rat study in the 40's that keeps echoing on the interwebs.

- HCG has been used as a male fertility treatment since the 50's in doses of 5,000 and 10,000 IU weekly or more. Hundreds of thousands of men have been exposed to this therapy with positive results.

- HCG has been used for health related hormone modulation (HCG Monotherapy, HCG to augment TRT) for decades. Dr. Shippen, for example, started using it with his patients in the 70's. Others like Crisler followed those footsteps.

(I don't have hard evidence but I suspect more men were on HCG Monotherapy than were on TRT until relatively recently. HCG Mono is of no interest to body builders and has limited abuse potential. Guys just worked with their doctors, hence the relative quiet. Anyone who's been around long enough may remember posts from ancient days on other forums when lots of dudes were writing about converting from long term HCG Mono to TRT.)

Dose response, side effects, and impact of short and long term use are well understood in medical academic and practice circles.

 

[S1W]

Let me stop you right there, partner. With all the noise out there, it's not so easy to distinguish opinion from fact. Here are a couple of facts that sometimes get lost:

- There is no evidence of Leydig cell desensitization in human males from HCG use. None. Nada. Nothing. There was a poorly run rat study in the 40's that keeps echoing on the interwebs.

- HCG has been used as a male fertility treatment since the 50's in doses of 5,000 and 10,000 IU weekly or more. Hundreds of thousands of men have been exposed to this therapy with positive results.

- HCG has been used for health related hormone modulation (HCG Monotherapy, HCG to augment TRT) for decades. Dr. Shippen, for example, started using it with his patients in the 70's. Others like Crisler followed those footsteps.

(I don't have hard evidence but I suspect more men were on HCG Monotherapy than were on TRT until relatively recently. HCG Mono is of no interest to body builders and has limited abuse potential. Guys just worked with their doctors, hence the relative quiet. Anyone who's been around long enough may remember posts from ancient days on other forums when lots of dudes were writing about converting from long term HCG Mono to TRT.)

Dose response, side effects, and impact of short and long term use are well understood in medical academic and practice circles.

Well that's good to know. I still feel better without it. If you reread my post I didn't state that anything I said was a fact - more about how I feel/think about it. Partner.