I want to go with defy, but I have a major concern

[averagemale]

You've been very helpful to me in the past, and I have spoken to defy. I know that they can probably help me, but I have one major concern. Money.

I have the money for a consult and everything right now, but I know that my job and career prospects aren't stable. Let's say I am treated by defy successfully, and for 2 years I am hypothetically treated with TRT(not saying that they will or won't but let's say they do) and something happens with my job, and money is really tight. What do I do then?

I know that my health is important, and that it should come above money, but in this life and current economy jobs come and go. With the going being more frequent. I'm terrified that I would have to stop treatment, leaving me worse off than I am now. Hypothetically assume that the money for medication and follow ups just isn't there, and I know that defy is a business, they're not going to work for free. I'd be really screwed, especially if all of the local doctors refuse to help. Which is the case. What would I do? Just hypothetically go off of testosterone, hope a local doctor covered by insurance will help, beg defy, panhandle for money(joking)?

Some other questions:

1. I have had LH come back mid to high range. 5, and 8.5 1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL. With high 300's, and high 400's total testosterone ng/dl 348 - 1197 ng/dl. Does this seem like clomid can work?

2. Getting the physical for defy, can I use this http://www.rediclinic.com/camp-and-sports-physicals-at-rediclinic-2/

3. How low is my e2, I got 8.6 pg/ml on a standard assay 7.6 - 42.6.

4. My DHEA is high, 572 ug/dl 164.3 - 530.5 I understand that most guys here try to raise DHEA, and that being in the high part of the range is good, but is being above it a bad thing? Or is it just a sign of adrenal health? I have never taken DHEA supplements.

 

[CoastWatcher]

How would it be any different if you were being treated by a local doctor if you lost your job? You'd still have to pay for your prescriptions and lab tests. Either way, Defy or a local doctor, you'd be facing the same challenges. Don't let fear stop you from sorting out why you feel so miserable.

 

[GA8314]

o.k. Here's how I would look at this one. Listen, I'm very empathetic to this very difficult economy. Our economic situation has hit men particularly hard given the loss in manufacturing and production jobs.

However, you also need to realize that if you need this treatment (perhaps more so than many other treatments with the exception of very serious acute scenarios such as infections or cancers or traumas), you really need this treatment. This is one treatment which can help you succeed in the job market. It can help you navigate a stressful, difficult labor market.

Please understand this. TRT is NOT a panacea, but if you are truly deficient/suboptimal, then the COST of NOT complying with therapy is greater than you may appreciate.

For $100/month or so, you CAN make this work. If you need to go mow some lawns, cancel your cable channels, cut back in other ways, then do it. If you are suboptimal, it is WORTH finding the money and making it happen to help the guys at Defy HELP YOU take control of your life.

Consider this. I've not phased this very eloquently, but it's the truth. Good luck.

Also, what is it that you do for work? What's your educational background? What are your particular skill sets? What general part of the country do you live in? How old are you?

 

[averagemale]

coastwatcher: I have medicaid so even if I lost my job I'd be covered. I don't really pay much for visiting doctors or medicines. I don't worry about how much I have to pay for local treatment, but as we all know most local doctors are nowhere near as good as defy. I understand they're worth the money, I only worry about the future.

GA8314: I'm in sales mostly, so I understand that testosterone can help with my performance, and it's really an investment especially if it boosts my performance.

I do understand that $100 a month isn't much to come up with, but there are other things I need to pay for. I'm just trying to plan for worst case scenario, we've all seen what can happen such as the 2008 financial crisis. It didn't matter what you did, if the average person doesn't have money, it becomes very very difficult to do any kind of work for money. I might sound paranoid, but I am just thinking seriously about the commitment that TRT is. I am trying to take it seriously.

I have a high school degree, so finding jobs is really difficult. Especially when you add in that I'm not really able to do manual labor due to a sleep disorder. I just accept that I cannot know what the future holds, no one can, and in a couple of years things can change a LOT. Having a savings for defy would probably help ease my fears.




Does anyone have any thoughts on my other questions?

 

[PAUL-E]

I would go for it ga8314 is right it can help you preform better at work. If one day you cannot afford defy maybe a local GP can take over managing your defy protocol until your able to afford it again.

 

[averagemale]

It's not really a concern of paying for it now, just in the future, because no one knows what can happen. I do understand that if treatment can help me with work, it would pay for itself. I hope it does! I like to be prepared.


I would hope that a local doctor would be more willing to continue treatment, even if they wouldn't start treatment.

I was wondering if anyone here has done that or knew anyone who has.

Also I'd like to know what people here think about the other questions I asked.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Averagemale

Where do you live?

 

[ERO]

So you would rather continue to feel miserable because you might possibly be out of work at some point years in the future? I am not saying this to be critical, but that makes no sense whatsoever. Any of us could get hit by a bus a year from now - you can't predict the future, so you need to get the treatment you need NOW to start feeling right again and live each day to the fullest.

 

[PAUL-E]

Sound like your primary hypogonadism, your brain is telling your balls to produce more testosterone but they are unable. So the clomid wouldn't be as effective as testosterone since it only tells your balls to produce more testosterone. Others on here said they did the sports physical for defy so that should be fine. You could talk to defy about your concerns and come up with a PCT plan in case you were unable to continue treatment or try to find a experienced DR. who your insurance will cover. good luck

 

[Fireproof]

If I were in your shoes, I would go to the experts (Defy) while I can, and determine the right protocol for me. It takes some trial and error and the expertise of knowledgeable Docs like Crisler and Saya to get it right.

Then if the time comes where you can no longer afford their services, at least you have a lot of history, lab results, and expertise backing up your TRT approach - which should be very useful in finding and educating a Doc in-network with your insurance to hopefully help you maintain that approach.

Versus doing what I did - and assuming the docs are educated, but then finding they aren't knowledgable in much of anything, they don't consider anything other than Testosterone and Estrogen levels, and they tend to "treat the lab results, not the patient." As you've seen here, getting to upper quartile of the "range" isn't the right answer for everyone.

So glad I found Defy. Good luck.

 

[PAUL-E]

So you would rather continue to feel miserable because you might possibly be out of work at some point years in the future? I am not saying this to be critical, but that makes no sense whatsoever. Any of us could get hit by a bus a year from now - you can't predict the future, so you need to get the treatment you need NOW to start feeling right again and live each day to the fullest.

Totally agree, all about quality of life otherwise what's the point. I myself am between jobs at the moment but I do not regret going on TRT because it has improved my quality of life and my relationship with my family. you really don't know how messed up you are until you get better IMHO.

 

[torrential]

It's not really a concern of paying for it now, just in the future, because no one knows what can happen.

Paralyzed by fear of what may happen is the low T talking. Seize the day, friend.

Look at it from the other side: If two years from now your world hasn't ended, how will you feel then about not taking this important step now?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Your e2 is low - no matter which test measured it. Low T, low E - no wonder you are miserable.

 

[Re-Ride]

You have every cause for concern regarding future costs. Pay for treatment now. Learn what to do. You are not dependent now or in the future on getting supplies at licensed drug dealers. As our standard of living equalizes with that of Mexico you can expect prices here equalize with that of pharmacias. You can't squeeze blood out of a dead root.

 

[averagemale]

Nelson vergel: I live in south east pennsylvania.

Ero: No that's not what I'm saying, I absolutely don't want to continue feeling this way. I am in the process of setting up with defy. These are just the thoughts that I have, and assumed someone else may have had the same thoughts that I do, and would tell me their opinion or their experience.

Paul-e: That's what I was thinking. Actually you have a good idea and that could possibly help! Thanks that's the kind of advice I'm looking for. Do you happen to know what range of LH clomid is used to achieve? The research I've done points to the high end of the lab range 1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL. I would assume that you wouldn't use clomid to go above the lab range, right? That would probably lead to the same concern with HCG of desensitizing the leydig cells.

Fireproof: You are absolutely spot on! Thank you, this is the advice I am looking for. That would probably strengthen my case if the unfortunate would happen.

Torrential: That might be it, I do this with everything. I would love to be able to just make a decision without analyzing the sun, moon, and stars about what kind of topping I want on my ice cream! Joking, but you get the point.

I wasn't saying I wouldn't get treatment because I might not be able to afford it in the future, it is a concern, but I was asking how to minimize that risk, and so far have gotten some good advice.

Coastwatcher: You're right. My hormones are all screwed up, I can't believe I'd ever be thinking "I want more estrogen!" but from what I've learned about hormones, estrogen is just as important as testosterone in men.

Re-ride: It's getting tougher and tougher to live everyday in this country. I get exactly what you're saying, if I learn how to manage my routine, then I can do what I have to do if necessary.

1. Is my DHEA result anything to be concerned about? I know most guys try to keep theirs high, but is it a bad thing to be above the range?

2. My T:E ratio is 57, so that means I would have to have a total testosterone of 1140 to have an E2 of 20. 20 is still low. How do I increase my aromatisation, and I know how funny that is because most guys want to do the opposite!

 

[torrential]

averagemale,

Is the DHEA test DHEA or DHEA-S? It's the S (sulfate) that is important. By itself this single slightly high result may not be meaningful.

The estradiol test you listed is a standard assay. This generally does not provide useful information for males. You could be OK, high, or low but this test won't tell you.

Did you happen to pull SHBG or any thyroid levels? Those are useful as well.

 

[averagemale]

It is the DHEA-S. Would high DHEA-S even be a bad thing?

I thought the standard estradiol test just overestimates for men, not that it's completely useless.

Yes. http://imgur.com/vgeLmO4 http://imgur.com/9K2eo1Z

 

[Vettester Chris]

If you're not taking any DHEA supplements, then YES, IMO you need a deeper look into the adrenals. In the later stages of adrenal fatigue, Stage 5 and thereafter, DHEA levels can be excessive, and even in the earlier adapted phase, it will rise to keep pace with the demand on cortisol. Sometimes underlying issues with the adrenal or the pituitary can also be a problem. Not to put fear in your mind, just saying it would be good to have it checked out. For the cortisol/DHEA, I'm a big fan of the 24 hour saliva test, circadian profile with Cort/DHEA correlation. ZRT or Canary Club has it, and you will find a lot of information at STTM and with Dr. Lam.

 

[averagemale]

I'm a little worried right now. Should I retest my DHEA-S, and go from there? I don't know much about adrenal fatigue, not to be rude, but is it a recognized condition, or is it in the process of being one? I know that several years ago, certain diseases weren't recogonized, and we called things diseases that weren't. Such as homosexuality, and hysteria.

What are the symptoms of adrenal fatigue?

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

So you would rather continue to feel miserable because you might possibly be out of work at some point years in the future? I am not saying this to be critical, but that makes no sense whatsoever. Any of us could get hit by a bus a year from now - you can't predict the future, so you need to get the treatment you need NOW to start feeling right again and live each day to the fullest.

Average male,

I agree with the above statement. The largest amount of money you'll be spending is your start up costs with Defy. Consultation fee, initial drug purchase, blood tests, etc. Once you get past that, the cost of test and HCG is minimal. The expertise you'll be receiving from Defy is well worth the initial cost. This is when you will have everything looked at by Dr. Saya or Dr. Crisler, and given an initial protocol. That alone is gold...everything after this is going to be small adjustments to your protocol at the 3/6 month mark in your treatment. Who knows, you might even be locked in with your protocol by the 3 month follow up consultation.

Do you have any idea of how much time you're going to waste going to some general practitioner who doesn't know squat about TRT...only to refer you to an Endo or a Urologist that doesn't know squat about TRT? Trust me, it will be an exercise in frustration.

An 11,000 IU vial of HCG costs $70 at Defy, and will last you approximately 11 weeks. A 10mL vial of Testosterone Cypionate will cost you $129, and that should last you anywhere from 10 to 20 weeks, depending on your dosage. Are you telling us you can't afford that? That comes out to about $66/month, assuming those two vials last you about 3 months. That's not even the cost of a bad night drinking.

Everything you need to feel better is sitting right in front of you. All you have to do is take action. We're all pulling for you here.