HCG skyrocketing Testosterone?

[readyforchange]

I've been on TRT for over a year now. Long story short: after starting at 160mg/week and eventually trying to find the "least effective dose", going all the way down to 100mg/week, 6 weeks ago when I met with Dr. Saya, we landed on 132mg/week (3.5 days).

At the time, my protocol was this: 60mg, .125 anastrozole, and 350 IU's HCG every 3.5 days. That produced the following labs:

Total T:950
Free T:18
Estradiol: 32

Dr. Saya then adjusted my protocol to the following: 66mg test, .125 anastrozole, and 500 IU's HCG every 3.5 days. This caused my Testosterone to skyrocket to the following:

Total T: Above 1500 (that's all labcorp says when it's above that number)
Free T: 39

The weird thing is, I've been on higher test dosage with all other meds the same (500 IU's HCG and .125 anastrozole) with MUCH lower testosterone numbers.

Could this be a lab error or is it possible for my body to suddenly become much more sensitive to HCG and Test Cyp?

 

[Systemlord]

There tends to be a threshold where an increase in T sees levels shoot upwards, on 20mg EOD I see 500 ng/dL, increase weekly from 80mg to 100mg (25mg EOD) and you see double Total T 1000.

 

[Vince Carter]

Did you test in the trough both times? Same lab doing the test?

Only if one was secondary hypogonadal would (could) there be some endo T stimulation through HCG and even then that's kind of an individual thing, certainly not a 500+ point jump

 

[stx359]

I had a similar experience after being on TRT for 6 months and then adding HCG. I had a jump in Total T around 500 points as well. I reduced my test cyp dose 20% from 100 mg q 3.5 to 80 mg q 3.5 to accommodate that. I inject 150 IU of HCG daily (Crisler protocol). I get my bi monthly draw tomorrow but my last few have been right where I want them and I have been on TRT about 16 months now. HCG was a Godsend. On TRT alone my mood and sexual response suffered.

 

[DragonBits]

I would think that if HCG gave anyone such a big jump in TT, they don't really need to be on testosterone cypionate, they could go HCG mono. Which might be more natural with less E2.

 

[Vince]

I would think that if HCG gave anyone such a big jump in TT, they don't really need to be on testosterone cypionate, they could go HCG mono. Which might be more natural with less E2.

That's my thoughts exactly

 

[Vince Carter]

Two reasons HCG mono fails which you're ignoring is that it's only appropriate in a secondary guy as problem in the testes (primary) no HCG is going to counter that. Second, direct stim of the testes through HCG has more E problems due to the aromatase that occurs there. Adding that in the testicular environment an AI is much less effective.

"More natural with less E2" isn't correct except for the possible unicorn among us.

 

[DragonBits]

Two reasons HCG mono fails which you're ignoring is that it's only appropriate in a secondary guy as problem in the testes (primary) no HCG is going to counter that. Second, direct stim of the testes through HCG has more E problems due to the aromatase that occurs there. Adding that in the testicular environment an AI is much less effective.

"More natural with less E2" isn't correct except for the possible unicorn among us.

We are not ignoring the first reason, as this example is specifically about someone who's TT skyrocketed with HCG, thus proving they are secondary.

As to the E2 issue, here is one thread on someone that uses HCG mono. Post #4, their E2 didn't seem that high.

Anyone knowledgable with HCG mono?

I did get the highest % of E2 / TT from Clomid, but even so my E2 was 27.2 on clomid.

I think the most common reason most men don't try HCG monotherapy is because doctors don't often recommend it and if you don't go to a compounding pharmacy it's very expensive. And testosterone therapy is 100% guaranteed to raise your serum TT levels, while HCG isn't predicable. A man can be partially secondary and primary, giving mixed results for HCG.

 

[readyforchange]

Did you test in the trough both times? Same lab doing the test?

Only if one was secondary hypogonadal would (could) there be some endo T stimulation through HCG and even then that's kind of an individual thing, certainly not a 500+ point jump

Same test, same day. The only difference is I did take this most recent one at 3pm, rather than first thing in the a.m. Like I usually do.

I have been told fasting isn't required for hormone testing and that it wouldn't have made the big of a difference... but is that right?

It's just weird that I've been on the amount of HCG and HIGHER dose of test cyp with lower labs... why would HCG suddenly start having a bigger impact on me?

Problem is, now I'm just not sure what to do... obviously that's WAY too high for trough readings (and I feel pretty crappy too - anxiety, erections and sex drive GONE)

But any test dosage lower than this put my free T too low, so not sure what the best action is... lower HCG to 250?

 

[readyforchange]

I would think that if HCG gave anyone such a big jump in TT, they don't really need to be on testosterone cypionate, they could go HCG mono. Which might be more natural with less E2.

I get what you're saying, I'm just confused why I'd suddenly be so responsive/sensitive to HCG after being on it in various dosages for the past 14 months.

 

[DragonBits]

IMO it’s like the weather.

They said it wasn’t going to rain, but then it did. What is going on?

In any sort of very complex system, there are so many interactions we usually can’t have enough total information about what is going on to be able to always predict the outcome.

One reason they suggest two hormone tests before starting TRT, levels can change for unknown reasons.

Before TRT, I took 6 mg of boron supplement, it appears to have increased my E2 from <5 to 11.1, FT from 5.5 > 7.5 and lowered TT from 390 > 348 ng/dl. But I wouldn’t bet my life on it being the boron.

So, a lot of things are constantly changing, Vit D levels, minerals, vitamins, your protocol changed, maybe the potency of the HCG was different, maybe your testicles “grew” larger and produce more testos.

BTW, the lab test for FT isn’t the most reliable, the Free testosterone (FT) measurement by equilibrium dialysis and liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectroscopy (LCMS/MS) is the “gold standard.” BUT much more expensive.

===========================================
The validity of androgen assays
The validity of androgen assays

“It has been known since 1973 that testosterone levels in normal males can fall in response to oral glucose by over 30%, depending on age, time and glucose load [10]”
=========================================================

At best we are only making educated guesses at what is happening, that is why doctors like to use the term idiopathic. Meaning basically, we don’t know.

If you are feeling good, wait and test again. Or just take a TT test, it's fairly cheap.

 

[busgalloway]

I have been told fasting isn't required for hormone testing and that it wouldn't have made the big of a difference... but is that right?

I don't know how much eating affects your test results, but it can affect your glucose reading if they check that so they have to ask. More importantly fasting makes your blood easier to draw. I've had it drawn with and without fasting, it can easily double or triple the time it takes for them to get a sample, and can be uncomfortable.

 

[Vince Carter]

Usual advice when you get something like that that's too far out to be explained is to stay steady on the protocol and retest, labs do make errors

 

[Simon7]

I too am Secondary Hypogonadism I've had similar effects of close to 50% increase in Testosterone levels after I increased the HCG dosage from daily shots of 300IU (2100IU weekly) to 600IU three time a week (1,800U weekly). This jump was not evident in the first month or two after I changed my protocol, but it did appear six months later. Perhaps it took my testicles time to recover from their previous state where they did not receive enough HcG to stimulate Testosterone production.

I changed this protocol after reading the article by Dr. Saya in the following Defy link in which he documented an experiment comparing blood serum HCG levels measured in two men during a 72 hour period after administering HcG shots of 150IU and 500IU:

Defy Medical Centers

As you can see in the above article the higher dose of 500IU substantially raises the serum HcG levels in the blood over 2-3 day period and thus if your testicles can produce Testosterone (secondary Hypogonadism) you will feel the difference in your Testosterone levels. I'm glad to be able to produce more Testosterone by my body and to lower the exogenous Testosterone I inject.