HCG Mono Therapy - No Libido or Sex Drive?!

[Aleeri]

Hey guys,
I am in need of some opinions on my results and current treatment. I am 28 years old and have been experiencing hormonal imbalance for the last few years. Took me a few years to understand what was going on.


Anyway I am currently seeing a good doctor who specialises in hormones. He currently has me on 25mg DHEA and 25mg Pregnenolone oral tablets. 2 UI HGH, 0.5mg Arimidex 3 times per week and 500 UI HCG 3 times per week.


Before treatment I had depression, weight loss, hairloss, no libido, no morning erections, difficulty maintaining erection, lack of energy etc. All the classic low T symptoms really.






Before I saw my current doctor this year I did a saliva test in September last year 2015, it showed Estrone 150 on a reference range of 25-55. Also my DHT and Androstenedione tested off the charts high. I was asked if I have used steroids, which I have not.


My current treatment plan outlined above has helped me regain energy, better sleep and improved mood and confidence. I now have morning erections every day and I have periods of good sexual activity. I feel about 40-50% better then before but far from good.




I took 5000 UI HCG shot once per week for 3 weeks before lowering dosage. I did not feel any improvements then. I then switched to 1500 UI IM and I almost got close to euphoria within 2 hours of the shot, felt better then I had done in years, but only lasted one day. Since then I have done 500 UI shots 3 times per week, I feel a difference on the days I take them.


Should I increase my dosage of HCG?



My problem now is that sometimes for periods I still struggle with maintaining erection (cialis helps and I take sometimes) but I still have very low libido. I just don’t want sex anymore, sometimes I have sex with my gf just for her pleasure which really feels f**ked up as a guy that should still have a raging libido in my age.






Can anybody shed some light what they think the issue might be of no libido? I mean I have tested 3 times reference range on DHT before and have side effects of high DHT like hairloss but still I have no libido, not horny at all like when I was younger.





I will be taking new labs in 2 weeks, but any second opinions are appreciated.




Labs from last year:




Hematology Panel, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
· Facility: LIFELABS


Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· WBC: A 3.2 giga/L (4.0 - 10.0) (Final)
· RBC: N 4.58 tera/L (4.20 - 5.40) (Final)
· Hemoglobin: N 134 g/l (133 - 165) (Final)
· Hematocrit: N 0.40 (0.38 - 0.50) (Final)
· MCV: N 86 fL (82 - 98) (Final)
· MCH: N 29.3 pg (27.5 - 33.5) (Final)
· MCHC: N 339 g/l (305 - 365) (Final)
· RDW: N 13.2 % (11.5 - 14.5) (Final)
· Platelet Count: N 250 giga/L (150 - 400) (Final)
· Neutrophils: A 1.4 giga/L (2.0 - 7.5) (Final)
· Lymphocytes: N 1.1 giga/L (1.0 - 4.0) (Final)
· Monocytes: N 0.6 giga/L (0.1 - 0.8) (Final)
· Eosinophils: N 0.1 giga/L (0.0 - 0.7) (Final)
· Basophils: N 0.0 giga/L (0.0 - 0.2) (Final)
· Granulocytes Immature: N 0.0 giga/L <0.2 (Final)




Iron / TIBC, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· Iron: N 10 umol/l (10 - 33) (Final)
· TIBC: N 50 umol/l (37 - 72) (Final)
· Iron Saturation: N 0.20 (0.20 - 0.55) (Final)




Vitamin B12, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· Vitamin B12: N 209 pmol/l (150 - 650) (Final)




Ferritin, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· Ferritin: N 53 ug/l (15 - 300) (Final)


TSH, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· TSH: N 1.2 mU/L (0.27 - 4.2) (Final)




Free T4, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· T4 Free (first: Free T4): N 14.8 pmol/l (10.5 - 20.0) (Final)




Free T3, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· T3 Free (first: Free T3): N 5.2 pmol/l (3.5 - 6.5) (Final)


Prolactin, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· Prolactin: N 5.5 ug/l <15 (Final)




________________________________________________________________________________________________________


From this year:


12 January 2016:


WBC 4.76 (4-11)
Neutrophil 35 (45-75)
Lymphocyte 42 (20-45)
Monocyte 18 (2-10)
Eosinophil 3 (4-6)
Basophil 2 (0-1)
RBC count 4.58 (4.5-6)
Hb 13.2 (14-18)
Hct 40 (41-51)
MCV 87.3 (80-98)
MCH 28.8 (27-32)
MCHC 33 (32-35)
RDW 13.4 (11.8-16.5)
Platelet count 231 (150-400)
RBC Morphology Normal


PSA 1.2 (0-4)
Free PSA 0.39
% Free PSA 32.5


Carrion Embryonic Antigen
CEA 2.2 (<4.6 non-smoker)
AFP 2.7 (0-7)






Total Testosterone 6.26 (2.8-8) ng/mL
SHBG 62 (10-60) nmol/L
Albumin 4.8 (3.5-5.2) g/dL
Free Testosterone 85 (90-300) pg/mL
% Free Testosterone 1.35 (2-4.8) % of Total
Bioavailable Testosterone 220 ng/dL
% Bioavailable Testosterone 35 % of Total


Estradiol 18.3 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
FSH 6.1 (1.5-12.4) mIU/mL
LH 7.3 (1.7-8.6) mIU/mL




TSH 1.13 (0.27-4.2) uIU/mL
Free T3 3.69 (1.9-5.1) pg/mL
Free T4 1.68 (0.93-1.70) ng/dL


DHEA-S 294 (80-560) ug/dL
Cortisol 8.1 (6.24-18 morning) ug/dL




IGF-1 95 (81-424) ng/mL




Stopped all supplements I used myself after this lab. I was using Myokem Alphadex as anti estrogen so you will see at my next labs my estrogen went up. Doctor put me on DHEA 25mg, Pregnenolone 25mg, 1mg Melatonin per day.




________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




3 February 2016:



Estradiol: 49.9 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
DHEA-S: 630 (80-560) ug/dL




After this labs we agree to continue DHEA, Pregnenolone and Melatonin. We also start HGH at 2 UI per day, building up dosage in two weeks.




_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




23 February 2016:



Estradiol: 34.9 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
IGF-1: 164 (81-424)




Starting HCG 500 UI 3 times a week, and 0.5mg Arimidex 3 times a week.

 

[ERO]

0.5 mg of Arimidex 3 times a week is a HUGE dose. A dose far higher than the vast majority of guys on high dose Testosterone-based TRT would ever need.

Plus it looks like your doctor is using the wrong E2 test. You need the sensitive E2 test, the other test is for women.

I would call Defy Medical and get a consult with them ASAP.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Welcome to Excelmale - we hope you'll be an active member. I have to question your assertion that you're seeing a "good doctor." You are taking a significant amount of Arimidex, well in excess of what cutting edge protocols typically call for. You are outside the US, aren't you? If that's the case, you will be unable to access the appropriate estradiol lab test (LC, MS/MS). That means your doctor is treating "high E2" based on a faulty lab test. It simply doesn't measure estradiol in men accurately. If he didn't realize that, and he pumped up your AI, that is terrible. I would cut the AI way back and see how symptoms respond.

 

[Aleeri]

Thanks for taking the time to read my thread, really appreciate it.

I have no labs after I started HCG and Arimidex. Results from January is pre any treatment. I had to go work abroad for 2 months to Singapore but I will get labs in 2 weeks. I will post them here when I do also.

My doctor is in Thailand, and for being in Thailand he is quite a good one. He got his education in US and worked there for 20 years. I believe Thailand does not have the correct estrogen test you are talking about.

I know HCG has a tendency to bump up your estrogen quite a lot and I thought my large dosage of Arimidex was because of this? What Arimidex dosage would you recommend for 500 UI HCG 3 times a week?

I have had quite nice improvements on HCG and Arimidex, every day there is the day where I take the HCG shot and Arimidex I feel much better then the other days of the week. I have more energy, confidence, less stressed etc. But no increase in sex drive or libido and after 24-36 hours it seems to go back to normal.

My thought is that my issues and symptoms comes from low range of Free Testosterone. Since my total T is quite ok. And that must have to do with SHBG correct? How come this is so high for me and how do I lower it?

Also I am thinking that what if I am going to low in estrogen now because of high arimidex dosage, but I don't feel like it. I have no side effects from the medication and I still have strong morning erections each morning.I have been monitoring it as a sign of going to low if they disappear. I can masturbate, get an erection and orgasm also, I just don't feel like doing it much.

 

[John O'Connor]

SHBG 62 (10-60) nmol/L
Albumin 4.8 (3.5-5.2) g/dL
Free Testosterone 85 (90-300) pg/mL
% Free Testosterone 1.35 (2-4.8) % of Total

Your high SHBG is related to your low Free T. You are at 1.35% and it needs to be above 2%.

Iron / TIBC, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· Iron: N 10 umol/l (10 - 33) (Final)
· TIBC: N 50 umol/l (37 - 72) (Final)
· Iron Saturation: N 0.20 (0.20 - 0.55) (Final)

Ferritin, 12 Sep 2015 9:15 AM
Flag Results Reference Range
---- ------- ---------------
· Ferritin: N 53 ug/l (15 - 300) (Final)

Both Iron and Ferritin are low - and could be caused by low Vitamin D. Vitamin D is needed to absorb Iron, Calcium, Magnesium, Phospate and Zinc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

Have Vitamin D checked - Standard range = 30-100 (but optimal = 50+ and 65-80 is even better.) Vitamin D is involved with a lot. I'd bet you are below 30, which is not uncommon. Do you get much regular sun?

 

[Aleeri]

Hey John,

Yes that is what I figured, what do you recommend to do about high SHBG? Is there any good ways to lower it, supplements or through diet?

I took high dosage of liver pills 2-3 months before that Iron test and it did nothing to the values. I have since then started taking Iron pills daily, been on it since that test but not retested yet, will do in two weeks.

I do not get much sun because I work in an office. But I have been in Asia since January and I do get much more sun here then back home in Sweden where I am from. I supplement 6000 UI Vitamin D per day and have been doing 4000 UI - 6000 UI per day for about a year.

Do you still think I could be low in Vit D?

 

[John O'Connor]

Hey Aleeri - Its good that you are supplementing Vitamin D & iron. Only way to tell is with follow up blood work. Was your Vitamin D low at one point?

Correcting Vitamin D, does not always correct the damage that may have occurred due to prior low Vitamin D. I was surprised to learn hypothyroidism is linked to low Vitamin D, but getting levels up, does not eliminate the hypothyroid state. Once you have it - you seem to have it for life. But I do think other symptoms can be reversed - such as getting iron/ferritin back up to normal levels. I'd get both checked regularly (every few months) to monitor progress of supplementation. Good luck!

 

[Aleeri]

I've never done vitamin D testing but will make sure I do in two weeks. I have been supplementing vitamin D for a long time on and off ever since I started an office job about 4 years ago. I am from Scandinavia and it's very common supplement there since we have few months of summer sun each year.

I thought my low iron/ferritin was from poor diet and low testosterone, since my RBC count was low also. Seems to be a thing that the higher your testosterone climb often RBC goes with it.

Thanks!

 

[Re-Ride]

... on days when I take HCG shot and Arimidex I feel much better then the other days of the week. I have more energy, confidence, less stressed etc. But no increase in sex drive or libido and after 24-36 hours it seems to go back to normal.

Also I am thinking that what if I am going too low in estrogen now because of high arimidex dosage, but I don't feel like it. I have no side effects from Arimidex.

Several of the most respected doctors have voiced their opinion in forums that increased frequency rather than increased dose yields a better result in hCG monotherapy. Unlike TRT where exogenous serum T levels are sustained over many days from one dose any endogenous T produced as a result from hCG is gone within hours and may even plummet to -0- at times.

There appears to be a huge variance among men on how much hCG they require to effect a satisfactory response in producing T. Individual variance seems to exist in the rate of clearing hCG and also how LH receptors located outside of their testes respond to stimulation by hCG. Many patients and doctors consider the bell curve of response as measured clinically and reported anecdotally for a stab-in-the-dark starting point.

It's not uncommon to begin therapy with doses in the thousands of IU's. Conversely one new member on here is reporting surprising results on what most would consider both low dosing and a low frequency of twice per week with no "jump start" dosing. His SHBG is on the low side. It is believed that either the Leydigs will continue grow in number or increase in size / vitality for up to 12 months before leveling off. The conservative camp believes that exceeding a dose of 500 IU/day is pointless as is dosing more than 3x weekly. They often mention concerns of excess E2 production or "desensitiation" or outright harm from doses higher than that. It is important to note that they nay be speaking of testicular maintenance in duo therapy TRT and their fears stem from rat and mice studies rather than any human clinical cases.

I'm not an MD and therefore can only share my experience with hCG mono and chronically low serum D despite intensive supplementation. EOD is the maximum interval that works for me. My serum tests demonstrate that serum T drops to unacceptable levels at the 72 hour mark. Initially I had very high E2 accompanied by pronounced gyno but that seems to have leveled off.

All of the above might warrant a discussion with your doc on trying EOD dosing, perhaps in the range of 300-500. Serum testing is ideal but it is possible to learn to recognize your bodies response to low or high E2. Because it can take 5-10 days to feel tired from low T it's more difficult to establish ideal dosing from symptoms or lack thereof.

Consider that low libido and ED, should you experience it, might respond to supplementation with herbs such as tribulis and goat weed ot aminos if symptoms don't subside after balancing all hormones.

Vit D needs to be taken as D3 cholcalciferol not D2 ergo. My experience and that of many others is that taking smaller doses frequently throughout the day with meals yields the best result at raising serum D. Theories on the competition for absorption should be considered even though in the body D3 may need to be potentiated by some combination of zinc magnesium and various forms of K. 10,000 or even 20 000 IU of D3 may be required to raise 25-D-Hydroxy levels.

B12, B6- yours seems low. check B6 as it may also be low. Supplement only with methylcobolmin not. cyanocobolomin. Personally I'm on board with B's taken as a complex if need, as opposed to taking a multi. I won't take anything which contains folic acid if i can avoid it which is a constant challenge since folic acid is widespread as an adulterant in many foods and supplements. I'm generous with methylcobalimin and cautious with pyroxidine.

These links are interesting but are not meant as an endorsement:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/769632
https://www.consumerlab.com/answers...+together+or+separately/how-to-take-vitamins/
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...-delicate-dance-between-vitamins-d-and-k.aspx
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/further-topics/i-tested-my-vitamin-d-level-what-do-my-results-mean/
http://www.k-vitamins.com/
http://www.medibolics.com/NelsonsVitamins.htm

 

[John O'Connor]

Aleeri, check out this thread for advice to lower SHBG with nettles. Scroll toward the botttom where member named Vitamin_C makes comments.
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6640-Total-T-1500-(New-Blood-Test)&p=37203#post37203

You mentioned upcoming blood work. I'd hold off on starting nettles until you complete that. Then try using nettles for a month and see if it improves things.

Also check this out - http://www.anabolicmen.com/10-ways-lower-shbg-boost-free-testosterone/

Vitamin D is on the list, so as we discussed earlier - have that checked.
Note the article also recommends magnesium & zinc - but both of these require Vitamin D to absorb them efficiently, just like iron which we discussed earlier.

Also ask your doctor to measure your zinc and magnesium levels along with iron & ferritin again.

The article also mentions fish oil - which made me wonder about your lipids. Have you had lipids checked?

Medications? are you taking any of these? These drugs for example: statins, beta blockers, antifungals, antidepressants, and hair loss drugs.

Also - check out Re-ride's comment at bottom of this post. He suggests Vitamin D and Boron could also be linked. "Most are aware that magnesium, zinc, B vitamins and possibly boron are considered likely co-factors in Vit D absorption and metabolism."
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...-Co-Administration-of-Calcium&highlight=boron

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/vitamin-d-and-other-vitamins-and-minerals/

Ask your doctor if he can check boron too.

Based on all of this - I'm guessing low vitamin D could cause deficits in iron, zinc, magnesium & boron - thus the ultimate cause of your high SHBG. Just a guess, but it seems logical. Lipids are also impacted by Vitamin D.

 

[Gene Devine]

Willing to bet my next bar tab that E2 is tanked...classic symptoms.

AI over prescribed and not warranted with the labs posted here.

Please make sure to post your new labs to this thread and it's your case and don't start a new one.

For what it's worth; HCG mono-therapy for many men rarely works to elevate Testosterone serum levels to optimal levels...if it did, we'd all be on it instead of Testosterone administration.

 

[John O'Connor]

Aleeri can you clarify when you started taking DHEA, Pregnilone, HCG & HGH.
Did all of these begin after 1/12/16 blood work.

His January 12th numbers before taking AI looked like this:
Total Testosterone 6.26 (2.8-8) ng/mL
SHBG 62 (10-60) nmol/L
Free Testosterone 85 (90-300) pg/mL
% Free Testosterone 1.35 (2-4.8) % of Total
Estradiol 18.3 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
FSH 6.1 (1.5-12.4) mIU/mL
LH 7.3 (1.7-8.6) mIU/mL
DHEA-S 294 (80-560) ug/dL

3 February 2016:
Estradiol: 49.9 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
DHEA-S: 630 (80-560) ug/dL
(After this labs we agree to continue DHEA, Pregnenolone and Melatonin. We also start HGH at 2 UI per day, building up dosage in two weeks.)

23 February 2016:
Estradiol: 34.9 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
IGF-1: 164 (81-424)
(Starting HCG 500 UI 3 times a week, and 0.5mg Arimidex 3 times a week.)

As he states: "Before I saw my current doctor this year I did a saliva test in September last year 2015, it showedEstrone 150 on a reference range of 25-55. Also my DHT and Androstenedione tested off the charts high."

I believe the initial issue was not Total Testosterone - it was the low Free Testosterone in combination with the high DHT (causing hair loss, etc.) Aleeri - again please clarify.

I'm wondering if this entire issue isn't related to high SHBG?

Gene - I'm learning here - so correct me if I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[Aleeri]

Thanks Re-ride, I will be talking to my doctor about switching to a EOD 250-500 IU HCG protocol instead. I am taking D3 drops in an olive oil base, 6000 IU a day. I really need to get this tested though so I know where I am.

I am looking into getting B12 shots for my B12. Since that blood panel I have been taking a combination supplement for building blood which contains those B vitamins and iron. I am hoping my levels will look better in two weeks.

I will look into the links, really appreciate it!

 

[Aleeri]

Thanks John,

I will make sure to ask for labs on all those minerals along with vit D.

I have been taking zinc along with magnesium for the last few months as supplements to try and see if anything improved, nothing yet. I currently take the concentrate trace mineral drops which also contains magnesium and boron. But only been on that for 2 weeks.

I bought two strong Nettle products that contains the Divanil extract which should be highly effective at releasing SHBG. I bought Activate Extreme and Endosurge Pro, both contains some additional herbals that should be good for libido. I will start one of these after I get my next blood panel.

 

[Aleeri]

Aleeri can you clarify when you started taking DHEA, Pregnilone, HCG & HGH.
Did all of these begin after 1/12/16 blood work.

His January 12th numbers before taking AI looked like this:
Total Testosterone 6.26 (2.8-8) ng/mL
SHBG 62 (10-60) nmol/L
Free Testosterone 85 (90-300) pg/mL
% Free Testosterone 1.35 (2-4.8) % of Total
Estradiol 18.3 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
FSH 6.1 (1.5-12.4) mIU/mL
LH 7.3 (1.7-8.6) mIU/mL
DHEA-S 294 (80-560) ug/dL

3 February 2016:
Estradiol: 49.9 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
DHEA-S: 630 (80-560) ug/dL
(After this labs we agree to continue DHEA, Pregnenolone and Melatonin. We also start HGH at 2 UI per day, building up dosage in two weeks.)

23 February 2016:
Estradiol: 34.9 (25.8-60.7) pg/mL
IGF-1: 164 (81-424)
(Starting HCG 500 UI 3 times a week, and 0.5mg Arimidex 3 times a week.)

As he states: "Before I saw my current doctor this year I did a saliva test in September last year 2015, it showedEstrone 150 on a reference range of 25-55. Also my DHT and Androstenedione tested off the charts high."

I believe the initial issue was not Total Testosterone - it was the low Free Testosterone in combination with the high DHT (causing hair loss, etc.) Aleeri - again please clarify.

I'm wondering if this entire issue isn't related to high SHBG?

Gene - I'm learning here - so correct me if I'm misunderstanding something.

Correct the dates above is actually the time line we are looking at. On the January 12th labs I had been taking Alphadex AI for 2-3 months, this was to get estrone down from that crazy 150 (3 times reference value).After seeing that Estradiol had dropped down to 18.3 I stopped Alphadex and no more AI until doctor got me on Arimidex when starting HCG 3th February.



Yes I also believe the initial issue was never low total T but low free T in combination with high DHT and high Estrone.



I was trying some Tongkat Ali months prior to that saliva test last year 2015. The first month on Tongkat I actually experienced relief in all symptoms of low T and my libido was back to that as a teenager. Unfortunately it only lasted a month and then started disappearing even though I cycled Tongkat 5 days on 2 off. Cycles of Tongkat has never been as good as first time since then.

I also had high androstenedione on that saliva test so I believe Tongkat lowered my SHBG and increased my T and free T but a lot aromatised to estrogen and DHT because I had no control of my estrogen levels back then. I should have been on an AI as well.

I was on vacation during a few weeks and alcohol consumption was high. That's how I think I ended up with the crazy levels, but I am sure I had very high levels even before since these symptoms have been going on for a long time.

I have had emotional issues and experienced facial flushing from workouts etc for over 8 years. When I got on a AI first time both of these improved, the flushing is practically gone now which makes me think that I aromatise to estrogen very easy and have done so for large parts of my life.

I really don't understand DHT, I had high DHT but never experienced good libido, only hair loss. It must be my high SHBG if DHT has higher affinity for SHBG? And when I got it lowered I suffered high estrogen rebound problem instead because when Tongkat released all of the DHT/T SHBG bound it also released all bound estrogen?

My understanding is that I suffer similar issues as that from aging but at a younger age. With age estrogen pushes up more and more, which in turn start DHT to climb (since it's antagonist of estrogen and body try to push estrogen down or control it with extra DHT). All this extra hormones make SHBG climb to control them. What you end up with is most of your T aromatising to DHT to balance your excess estrogen and then SHBG binding all the DHT and little T you have left to control overflow. It seems to me like as soon as there is higher levels of estrogen SHBG will climb to try to control it, problem is the affinity is higher for DHT and T etc.

The result: all the negatives of low T and excess DHT plus excess estrogen both bound and unbound.

Correct?

 

[John O'Connor]

"I was trying some Tongkat Ali months prior to that saliva test last year 2015. The first month on Tongkat I actually experienced relief in all symptoms of low T "

"The result: all the negatives of low T and excess DHT plus excess estrogen both bound and unbound."

When you say "low T" are you talking about Total T, or Free T?

Why did you initially take Tongkat Ali? Was it to boost T? Or reduce hair loss?

So at time of your January 12th blood draw you were taking Alphadex AI, which lowered your estradiol to 18.3 from the highly elevated 150 levels related to Tongkat Ali use.

So from October to January 12th, besides Alphadex AI, were you taking anything to boost testosterone? Did you use Tongkat Ali during this period?

In other words, are these your natural levels, or artificially high?
Total Testosterone 6.26 (2.8-8) ng/mL
SHBG 62 (10-60) nmol/L
Free Testosterone 85 (90-300) pg/mL

Obviously Free T is low, due to SHBG), but I'm trying to understand the trigger.
And your current program of HGH & HCG also have me confused, as anything that leads to higher Total Testosterone will ultimately lead to higher DHT & higher conversion to estradiol.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems crazy for you to be currently trying to push testosterone higher. Am I missing something here? Aleeri or anybody - please explain if my logic is right or wrong and why.

I'm also questioning the continued DHEA supplementation which boosted your levels from DHEA-S 294 (80-560) on Jan 12th
to DHEA-S: 630 (80-560) on Feb 3rd.

 

[Aleeri]

"I was trying some Tongkat Ali months prior to that saliva test last year 2015. The first month on Tongkat I actually experienced relief in all symptoms of low T "

"The result: all the negatives of low T and excess DHT plus excess estrogen both bound and unbound."

When you say "low T" are you talking about Total T, or Free T?

Why did you initially take Tongkat Ali? Was it to boost T? Or reduce hair loss?

So at time of your January 12th blood draw you were taking Alphadex AI, which lowered your estradiol to 18.3 from the highly elevated 150 levels related to Tongkat Ali use.

So from October to January 12th, besides Alphadex AI, were you taking anything to boost testosterone? Did you use Tongkat Ali during this period?

In other words, are these your natural levels, or artificially high?
Total Testosterone 6.26 (2.8-8) ng/mL
SHBG 62 (10-60) nmol/L
Free Testosterone 85 (90-300) pg/mL

Obviously Free T is low, due to SHBG), but I'm trying to understand the trigger.
And your current program of HGH & HCG also have me confused, as anything that leads to higher Total Testosterone will ultimately lead to higher DHT & higher conversion to estradiol.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems crazy for you to be currently trying to push testosterone higher. Am I missing something here? Aleeri or anybody - please explain if my logic is right or wrong and why.

I'm also questioning the continued DHEA supplementation which boosted your levels from DHEA-S 294 (80-560) on Jan 12th
to DHEA-S: 630 (80-560) on Feb 3rd.

I mean free T.

Before trying Tongkat Ali I experienced all the classic symptoms of low T or low free T. I had zero libido and not even morning erections.

Tongkat Ali improved much and brought morning erections back, but I struggled with ED any time expect in the mornings. I had depression and low energy levels.

Because of that I am 100% sure the high estrogen levels was before Tongkat, since Tongkat has been seen to actually lower estrogen like an AI. My guess is that it was not enough in my case by itself and only lowered estrogen long enough until the SHBG lowering properties freed up more.

I was only taking Alphadex during the time of the 12th January test. Maybe some other supplements also but nothing related to boosting T. I believe my total
T to be higher because of Alphadex AI but I cannot prove this. But I don't think me problem generally is low total T, but I am sure it could have been improved though.

HGH is because I had low IGF-1, probably from long time of having low free T, my doctor says my levels should be 150+ for my age.

HCG I think we were looking at increasing T and hence getting more free T? Since pushing more T = lowering SHBG? He has not said this himself but that was my understanding. Will have to ask my doctor and get back.

My doctor also said higher DHEA has been correlated with anti aging benefits in studies which is why he keeps me above high range.

His general opinion is that I am suffering from signs of andropause or premature aging but at a very early age.

 

[John O'Connor]

OK, my impression is that you naturally have high T, thus the high DHT & associated hair loss. Did you have hair loss prior to ever touching Tongkat Ali?

I think you misunderstand how it works. It supposedly tricks your pituitary into thinking you have low T, thus your pituitary continues to send out FSH & LH - thus raising Total T, thus raising DHT further along with conversion to estrogen.

Your initial positive experience with Tongkat Ali - sounds exactly like someone starting TRT, who aromatases testosterone to estrogen to much. They have initial boost, then the elevated estrogen causes sexual side-effects.

Again - if anyone else can add insight - please do.

 

[Aleeri]

OK, my impression is that you naturally have high T, thus the high DHT & associated hair loss. Did you have hair loss prior to ever touching Tongkat Ali?

I think you misunderstand how it works. It supposedly tricks your pituitary into thinking you have low T, thus your pituitary continues to send out FSH & LH - thus raising Total T, thus raising DHT further along with conversion to estrogen.

Your initial positive experience with Tongkat Ali - sounds exactly like someone starting TRT, who aromatases testosterone to estrogen to much. They have initial boost, then the elevated estrogen causes sexual side-effects.

Again - if anyone else can add insight - please do.

Yes I had hairloss prior to starting Tongkat.

My hairloss started mid/end 2014, photos 3 years back I did not have any. I have a receding hairline and frontal thining, crown is still ok.

hairloss started during a period of a lot of overtime at work and not enough sleep. Poor diet running a calorie restriction because I did not make time to eat. I find it easy to go hungry or to overeat. I lost over 10kg during this time.

I was also a vegetarian for 2 years, stopped this almost a year ago now, I know vegetarians have more SHBG but I stopped so long ago it should have corrected by now if that was the case.

Libido issues started over 5 years ago. Been better and worse on and off but generally never as good as it was around 20 years age.

So basically my problem lies in controlling Estrogen and getting my SHBG down?

Everything you are saying makes sense, thanks John for taking the time.

I emailed a clinic here in Singapore this morning, thinking I am going to pay a bit extra and just get estradiol tested now so I know if I should stop Arimidex or not. Does Arimidex cause rebound estrogen?

 

[Aleeri]

Ok I called around to all clinics here and it seems like they only have the standard E2 test. Should I still get it to see if I am low?