HCG: How much is safe to use?

[liftingheavy220]

Hello everyone,

As someone who has been on TRT for about 1.5 years I’ve been off and on HCG and tried doses anywhere from 250-500ius per injection. When I started TRT I was immediately put on HCG as I was 24 and my doctor was concerned about fertility issues down the road if I was T only. More recently I decided to experiment without the use of HCG for about 2 months. In the last couple of months without HCG I noticed that I could take up to 200mg of TRT without an AI but by testicles shrunk by about 30%. I also noticed a decrease in mood and just and overall my sense of well-being diminished.

At this point it seems clear that HCG is something that will be a staple in my regimen.

My question for all of the experts and experienced TRT/HCG users here is: how much HCG can you safely take per week long-term and how much HCG is safe to take per day? I’ve seen posts in some forums that 500ius is the max one should take per day as the more HCG you take the potential of desensitized leydig cells becomes an issue.

 

[Vince Carter]

Desensitze is a bit of a boogeyman more than factual, it's what you choose to believe in that regard.
HCG use in TRT can be all over the map...from 500iu twice per week, to 100iu per day, and everything in between that you can possibly conjure up.

 

[Vince]

I believe HCG can increase your estrogen by 10 to 20%. I like injecting 500 IU of HCG twice a week. I've had thought about injecting 500 IU three times a week. I don't think that is necessary to inject more than 500 IU every other day.

 

[Vince Carter]

Too this is so loaded of an opionated question that you can get 10 replies and 10 very different opinions.

 

[Gman86]

Hello everyone,

As someone who has been on TRT for about 1.5 years I’ve been off and on HCG and tried doses anywhere from 250-500ius per injection. When I started TRT I was immediately put on HCG as I was 24 and my doctor was concerned about fertility issues down the road if I was T only. More recently I decided to experiment without the use of HCG for about 2 months. In the last couple of months without HCG I noticed that I could take up to 200mg of TRT without an AI but by testicles shrunk by about 30%. I also noticed a decrease in mood and just and overall my sense of well-being diminished.

At this point it seems clear that HCG is something that will be a staple in my regimen.

My question for all of the experts and experienced TRT/HCG users here is: how much HCG can you safely take per week long-term and how much HCG is safe to take per day? I’ve seen posts in some forums that 500ius is the max one should take per day as the more HCG you take the potential of desensitized leydig cells becomes an issue.

What brand of HCG were you using? Also, when you say “I noticed that I could take up to 200mg of TRT without an AI”, are you saying that while on HCG, you tried 200mg/ week and had high E2 symptoms? And if so, what were those symptoms?

I’m also running an experiment right now of dropping my HCG and ai, I’m only 7 days in so far though.

 

[Vince]

What brand of HCG were you using? Also, when you say “I noticed that I could take up to 200mg of TRT without an AI”, are you saying that while on HCG, you tried 200mg/ week and had high E2 symptoms? And if so, what were those symptoms?

I’m also running an experiment right now of dropping my HCG and ai, I’m only 7 days in so far though.

I'm also someone who can inject 200 mg of testosterone cypionate with HCG and not have to use an AI. I did it once for 6 months and my estrogen levels we're still in a good range.

The issue for me was high HCT, after that I went to daily injections and I've never had to donate blood again.

 

[Gman86]

I'm also someone who can inject 200 mg of testosterone cypionate with HCG and not have to use an AI. I did it once for 6 months and my estrogen levels we're still in a good range.

Jealous! Lol. But I think he is saying that when he was taking 200mg/ week with HCG, he needed an ai. He’s saying he was only able to drop the ai once he dropped the HCG.

 

[Vince]

Jealous! Lol. But I think he is saying that when he was taking 200mg/ week with HCG, he needed an ai. He’s saying he was only able to drop the ai once he dropped the HCG.

Yes, it does seem that a lot of members estrogen increases when they use HCG. Like Vince Carter stated, "Too this is so loaded of an opionated question that you can get 10 replies and 10 very different opinions." So true!

 

[Gman86]

Yes, it does seem that a lot of members estrogen increases when they use HCG. Like Vince Carter stated, "Too this is so loaded of an opionated question that you can get 10 replies and 10 very different opinions." So true!

Exactly. I hate that there isn’t a solid concensus on HCG. It makes sense though. How someone reacts to HCG depends on the brand, whether the person is primary or secondary, and even if they’re secondary, to what degree they’re secondary factors in (how sensitive their leydig cells are to LH). Also how gentle the person is when they reconstitute the HCG plays a role, how gentle they are when handling it, how they store it, how long they have been using the same bottle factors in (HCG loses potency over time once reconstituted), how sensitive they are to E2 plays a role, etc. HCG just has way too many variables, so I’m not surprised that guys here are having vastly different experiences on it.

 

[Vince]

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin – By Gene Devine

 

[DragonBits]

Yes, it does seem that a lot of members estrogen increases when they use HCG. Like Vince Carter stated, "Too this is so loaded of an opionated question that you can get 10 replies and 10 very different opinions." So true!

But that implies for some HCG increases estrogen more than would be indicated by the increase in testosterone.

Meaning if you bring your TT to 1200 via testosterone cypionate , you get less estrogen than if you increase your TT to 1200 via testosterone cypionate and HCG.

Which doesn't make sense to me unless either people aren't being very exacting in their measurements (not really the same levels of TT for each protocol), or there is something else going on which we aren't aware of.

There is also the fact that TC will give you a different "waveform" of TT rise Vs your testicles. However, I would think the sharp quick rise from a TC injection would result in more E2 and HCT than a similar rise from your testicles.

Correct me if I am wrong, but HCG isn't often used in men outside of TRT, once in a while for fertility reason, so it isn't well studied.

Also, I have read HCG is 5 times more potent than LH in some situations, while LH is more potent in other situations, but it's beyond me to really understand this.

--------------------------------------------------------------
LH and hCG Action on the Same Receptor Results in Quantitatively and Qualitatively Different Intracellular Signalling

Abstract

Human luteinizing hormone (hLH) and chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) act on the same receptor (LHCGR) but it is not known whether they elicit the same cellular and molecular response. This study compares for the first time the activation of cell-signalling pathways and gene expression in response to hLH and hCG. Using recombinant hLH and recombinant hCG we evaluated the kinetics of cAMP production in COS-7 and hGL5 cells permanently expressing LHCGR (COS-7/LHCGR, hGL5/LHCGR), as well as cAMP, ERK1/2, AKT activation and progesterone production in primary human granulosa cells (hGLC). The expression of selected target genes was measured in the presence or absence of ERK- or AKT-pathways inhibitors. In COS-7/LHCGR cells, hCG is 5-fold more potent than hLH (cAMP ED50: 107.1±14.3 pM and 530.0±51.2 pM, respectively). hLH maximal effect was significantly faster (10 minutes by hLH; 1 hour by hCG). In hGLC continuous exposure to equipotent doses of gonadotropins up to 36 hours revealed that intracellular cAMP production is oscillating and significantly higher by hCG versus hLH. Conversely, phospho-ERK1/2 and -AKT activation was more potent and sustained by hLH versus hCG. ERK1/2 and AKT inhibition removed the inhibitory effect on NRG1 (neuregulin) expression by hLH but not by hCG; ERK1/2 inhibition significantly increased hLH- but not hCG-stimulated CYP19A1 (aromatase) expression. We conclude that: i) hCG is more potent on cAMP production, while hLH is more potent on ERK and AKT activation; ii) hGLC respond to equipotent, constant hLH or hCG stimulation with a fluctuating cAMP production and progressive progesterone secretion; and iii) the expression of hLH and hCG target genes partly involves the activation of different pathways depending on the ligand. Therefore, the LHCGR is able to differentiate the activity of hLH and hCG.

LH and hCG Action on the Same Receptor Results in Quantitatively and Qualitatively Different Intracellular Signalling

Honestly, I have no idea what cAMP production is nor what that all means. Can anyone explain what cAMP is?

 

[DragonBits]

Hello everyone,

As someone who has been on TRT for about 1.5 years I’ve been off and on HCG and tried doses anywhere from 250-500ius per injection. When I started TRT I was immediately put on HCG as I was 24 and my doctor was concerned about fertility issues down the road if I was T only. More recently I decided to experiment without the use of HCG for about 2 months. In the last couple of months without HCG I noticed that I could take up to 200mg of TRT without an AI but by testicles shrunk by about 30%. I also noticed a decrease in mood and just and overall my sense of well-being diminished.

At this point it seems clear that HCG is something that will be a staple in my regimen.

My question for all of the experts and experienced TRT/HCG users here is: how much HCG can you safely take per week long-term and how much HCG is safe to take per day? I’ve seen posts in some forums that 500ius is the max one should take per day as the more HCG you take the potential of desensitized leydig cells becomes an issue.

What caused you to stop the HCG? Just an experiment?
How high was your TT with or without HCG?
What was your TT before TRT?
Do you expect to want children in the near future?

Generally, you can restore your testicles by either using HCG or stopping TRT with or without Clomid/HCG. Just stopping with nothing else takes longer to restore function.

And since using TRT masks any decline in testicular function, you don't really know how much testosterone / sperm you can produce naturally while on TRT. You know how much you produced before you started, but we all know TT production declines year after year. And in some it declines quicker than for others. So a restart may or may not bring you back in time, so to speak, to what you were years ago.

 

[Cataceous]

But that implies for some HCG increases estrogen more than would be indicated by the increase in testosterone.

Meaning if you bring your TT to 1200 via testosterone cypionate , you get less estrogen than if you increase your TT to 1200 via testosterone cypionate and HCG.

Which doesn't make sense to me unless either people aren't being very exacting in their measurements (not really the same levels of TT for each protocol), or there is something else going on which we aren't aware of.
...

An oldie but a goodie: Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig cells by human chorionic gonadotropin in vitro

These results demonstrate that purified Leydig cells have a high capacity for aromatization and that hCG can acutely stimulate aromatization independently of stimulating testosterone synthesis in vitro.

 

[DragonBits]

Cataceous

Thanks, that might explain why clomid produces so much more E2 than one would expect.

 

[Sean Mosher]

Aren't some of the Dr. Lippschulz studies up to 500 IU's of hCG 3 times a week for maintaining fertility while on TRT?

 

[liftingheavy220]

Too this is so loaded of an opionated question that you can get 10 replies and 10 very different opinions.

I see, I was looking through old threads and I’ve seen all kinds of dosing but it seems like most people here use between 250-500ius per shot twice a week.

 

[liftingheavy220]

What brand of HCG were you using? Also, when you say “I noticed that I could take up to 200mg of TRT without an AI”, are you saying that while on HCG, you tried 200mg/ week and had high E2 symptoms? And if so, what were those symptoms?

I’m also running an experiment right now of dropping my HCG and ai, I’m only 7 days in so far though.

I was using empowers HCG back then but using absolute pharmacy’a HCG now because I switched to a different clinic. So I experimented a bit with and without HCG. While on HCG my estradiol shot from the mid 30s all the way up to mid 50s. If I didn’t take HCG and just used 200mg my estradiol would be about 35 on a non sensative test.

One thing to note is that I’ve used up 250mg of testosterone and HCG and it seems like my body tops out it’s aromatization to estradiol around 50-55 on a non sensitive test. I tend to feel my best when estradiol is less than 35 but no less than 15.

The sides I experienced with higher estradiol would be lowered erection quality(my libido was still high though), intense night sweats occasionally, irritability, moonface, and occasionally my nipples would have some slight sensitivity.

I also did notice that when I went from 500ius twice a week to 250ius twice a week of HCG , while keeping the same testosterone dosage, my nipple sensitivity would go down.

 

[liftingheavy220]

I'm also someone who can inject 200 mg of testosterone cypionate with HCG and not have to use an AI. I did it once for 6 months and my estrogen levels we're still in a good range.

The issue for me was high HCT, after that I went to daily injections and I've never had to donate blood again.

I tried going to daily injections of 28mg but my testosterone stayed around the same level and my estradiol, HCT, and RBC went up unfortunately. I only tried it for 3 weeks and my HCT went from 47 to almost 52 switching from twice a week to daily dosing.

It’s really interesting how our bodies are so different and how these different protocols effect us.

 

[Cataceous]

Cataceous

Thanks, that might explain why clomid produces so much more E2 than one would expect.

Yes, because it's likely LH has the same effect. Of course it doesn't help matters that zuclomiphene is estrogenic in its own right. Presumably these are some of the reasons why so few guys do well with Clomid in the long run.

 

[liftingheavy220]

What caused you to stop the HCG? Just an experiment?
How high was your TT with or without HCG?
What was your TT before TRT?
Do you expect to want children in the near future?

Generally, you can restore your testicles by either using HCG or stopping TRT with or without Clomid/HCG. Just stopping with nothing else takes longer to restore function.

And since using TRT masks any decline in testicular function, you don't really know how much testosterone / sperm you can produce naturally while on TRT. You know how much you produced before you started, but we all know TT production declines year after year. And in some it declines quicker than for others. So a restart may or may not bring you back in time, so to speak, to what you were years ago.

So, since starting TRT I’ve been on many different dosaages

It’s difficult to say as all the blood work I’ve done with the exception of about one of most recent labs has been with HCG. My total testosterone on 150mg without HCG was 784, Non sensitive estradiol was 32.7. I’ve been on 200mg (once a week injection) with HCG and my total test was 998, sensitive E2 was at 66.

My total T right before getting on TRT was 271.

Well, I’m 25 now so I’d like to have kids when I’m in my late 20s early 30s.