Having trouble alleviating symptoms, even with good numbers. How do I "dial in?" (long post)

[Systemlord]

When I was on daily injections I never felt the peaks and troughs I felt when on EOD or twice weekly, it was as if there were no fluctuations at all.

It was amazing!

 

[S1W]

mrcleancow,

My $0.02 since you're specifically asking for a new protocol - consider trying 30mg EOD. That would be a total of 105mg/week.

I make this suggestion for 2 reasons:

1. It doesn't look like you've tried a more frequent injection protocol yet - so IMHO jumping right into ED injections and skipping EOD could be a bit extreme. Might as well give EOD a shot first.

2. In terms of the dosage, it looks like all of your protocols have been well over the benchmark 100mg/week that guys should (but rarely do) start with. If you dig around, and perhaps you've seen this already, there are a bunch of experienced guys that admit that it took years for them to figure out that in terms of dosage, sometimes less is more.

As for the acne - I hear you there. I'm somewhat prone to acne to begin with, but it's almost the canary in the coal mine for me on TRT. When my dose is too high for me, I don't feel as good and I consistently get painful pimples on the back of my head and smaller pimples on my upper arms and back. Lower my dose, and my skin clears up and I feel better.

And for what it's worth, I also feel better on T only.

 

[YBWV]

My take on your Labs, and the symptoms you report, is that your DHT is too low. Your other numbers do indeed potentially look "good" but your inadequate 5a-r conversion to DHT prevents you from getting the results that you seek. You didn't include your lab ranges but, assuming typical ranges, you are probably barely mid range. You would likely do well at around 90 which is near the top of most ranges for DHT.

Your current T Clinic's idea to greatly increase your total weekly dose of injectable T seems to me a bad idea.
What I suggest (unless raising DHT is contraindicated) is that you investigate the mixed modality of T delivery - part T injectable and part T Cream to scrotum. This method of TRT has been discussed a lot here on Excelmale, particularly in the last few weeks, so the Search function will show the relevant threads.

If you find merit in this type of protocol then you could give it a try either with your current provider or, perhaps better, a new provider.
It is essentially a small change in protocol as you can remain at the same TT and just change the delivery method of a proportion of the T that you take. Many guys find that this small change can make a big difference and bring significant relief of symptoms.

 

[mrcleancow]

When I was on daily injections I never felt the peaks and troughs I felt when on EOD or twice weekly, it was as if there were no fluctuations at all.

It was amazing!

Why did you stop then, if it felt so great? Did it not work out long term?

 

[mrcleancow]

My take on your Labs, and the symptoms you report, is that your DHT is too low. Your other numbers do indeed potentially look "good" but your inadequate 5a-r conversion to DHT prevents you from getting the results that you seek. You didn't include your lab ranges but, assuming typical ranges, you are probably barely mid range. You would likely do well at around 90 which is near the top of most ranges for DHT.

Your current T Clinic's idea to greatly increase your total weekly dose of injectable T seems to me a bad idea.
What I suggest (unless raising DHT is contraindicated) is that you investigate the mixed modality of T delivery - part T injectable and part T Cream to scrotum. This method of TRT has been discussed a lot here on Excelmale, particularly in the last few weeks, so the Search function will show the relevant threads.

If you find merit in this type of protocol then you could give it a try either with your current provider or, perhaps better, a new provider.
It is essentially a small change in protocol as you can remain at the same TT and just change the delivery method of a proportion of the T that you take. Many guys find that this small change can make a big difference and bring significant relief of symptoms.

Thank you for the reply. I am definitely at mid range or barely there - but I am worried that more DHT will mean a massive increase in oily skin and acne, as I am already getting it at these lower levels?

 

[mrcleancow]

mrcleancow,

My $0.02 since you're specifically asking for a new protocol - consider trying 30mg EOD. That would be a total of 105mg/week.

I make this suggestion for 2 reasons:

1. It doesn't look like you've tried a more frequent injection protocol yet - so IMHO jumping right into ED injections and skipping EOD could be a bit extreme. Might as well give EOD a shot first.

2. In terms of the dosage, it looks like all of your protocols have been well over the benchmark 100mg/week that guys should (but rarely do) start with. If you dig around, and perhaps you've seen this already, there are a bunch of experienced guys that admit that it took years for them to figure out that in terms of dosage, sometimes less is more.

As for the acne - I hear you there. I'm somewhat prone to acne to begin with, but it's almost the canary in the coal mine for me on TRT. When my dose is too high for me, I don't feel as good and I consistently get painful pimples on the back of my head and smaller pimples on my upper arms and back. Lower my dose, and my skin clears up and I feel better.

And for what it's worth, I also feel better on T only.

Thank you for the input and your response! I appreciate it and will look into doing this.

 

[YBWV]

Thank you for the reply. I am definitely at mid range or barely there - but I am worried that more DHT will mean a massive increase in oily skin and acne, as I am already getting it at these lower levels?

Entirely possible as changes in levels of the sex hormones can bring those side effects - look at teenagers. Surely better though to feel great than worry about that possibility? Effects probably transitory anyway and can be dealt with as necessary.
Oily skin would likely accompany an increase in pheromones so there are positive sides too.

 

[mrcleancow]

Entirely possible as changes in levels of the sex hormones can bring those side effects - look at teenagers. Surely better though to feel great than worry about that possibility? Effects probably transitory anyway and can be dealt with as necessary.
Oily skin would likely accompany an increase in pheromones so there are positive sides too.

I suppose it is worth asking my doc to see if he will prescribe it. I ran the first TRT guys protocol for about 6 months and the oily skin never went away, but maybe it was the DHEA.

 

[mrcleancow]

My take on your Labs, and the symptoms you report, is that your DHT is too low. Your other numbers do indeed potentially look "good" but your inadequate 5a-r conversion to DHT prevents you from getting the results that you seek. You didn't include your lab ranges but, assuming typical ranges, you are probably barely mid range. You would likely do well at around 90 which is near the top of most ranges for DHT.

Your current T Clinic's idea to greatly increase your total weekly dose of injectable T seems to me a bad idea.
What I suggest (unless raising DHT is contraindicated) is that you investigate the mixed modality of T delivery - part T injectable and part T Cream to scrotum. This method of TRT has been discussed a lot here on Excelmale, particularly in the last few weeks, so the Search function will show the relevant threads.

If you find merit in this type of protocol then you could give it a try either with your current provider or, perhaps better, a new provider.
It is essentially a small change in protocol as you can remain at the same TT and just change the delivery method of a proportion of the T that you take. Many guys find that this small change can make a big difference and bring significant relief of symptoms.

If you don't mind me asking, if I wanted to raise DHT through injections alone, would it make sense to increase my Test dose accordingly? For example, if 40mg T solo had me at 60dht, increasing it to 60mg as a starting point to get me to around 90dht?

 

[Systemlord]

Why did you stop then, if it felt so great? Did it not work out long term?

I would get yellow skin and eyes, then skin would turn red and start itching and then burning. I went back to an EOD protocol and these issues subsided. I'm not allergic the any of the esters either. I don't know what the heck was going on and may never know, only that cholesterol lowering medicine reduced the sunburn like rashes. Liver testing shows a perfect liver.

My doctors are stumped why a cholesterol lowering medicine works at all when liver function tests are perfect.

 

[mrcleancow]

I would get yellow skin and eyes, then skin would turn red and start itching and then burning. I went back to an EOD protocol and these issues subsided. I'm not allergic the any of the esters either. I don't know what the heck was going on and may never know, only that cholesterol lowering medicine reduced the sunburn like rashes. Liver testing shows a perfect liver.

My doctors are stumped why a cholesterol lowering medicine works at all when liver function tests are perfect.

That's so strange. I am glad you are feeling better now.

 

[goolapsh]

If you don't mind me asking, if I wanted to raise DHT through injections alone, would it make sense to increase my Test dose accordingly? For example, if 40mg T solo had me at 60dht, increasing it to 60mg as a starting point to get me to around 90dht?

Mine did not work this way. I had low dht at 17, which when I increased my t cypionate dose actually decreased to 14. So it doesn’t work that way. That’s your bodies way of saying it has poor conversion to dht. I now supplement with cream.