"free equivalent" of varying testosterone esters? bioavailbilty

[blinkyvx]

I cant find info online or if the info from my book is correct. Basically when we take X amount inject able testosterone our bodies only uses X amount as bio-available?

I.E from the "definitive TRT manual"

100mg Injectable Propionate yields 83mg
100mg Injectable enanthate yields 72mg
100mg Injectable Cypionate yields 70mg
100mg Injectable Undecanoate yields 63mg

True? if so aside from my book where can i find i info to show my doctor.
Currently on IM 100mg cypionate Q7 days

 

[Vince Carter]

I can't verify the numbers but that looks correct the different esters do yield a differing amount of Test.

Other than googling it look for articles from Defy, Dr Saya, or Dr Crisler, I would trust those sources, your Dr might respect those individuals as an authority on the subject.

The author of that book you cited is not a Dr, scientist of anything other than a guy like you and me.

 

[blinkyvx]

Right, but he got the info from some where and his own experiences [not counting the bio-availability stuff]

I've showed the book to two different doctors and i had to argue with them to include additional testing for TRT. Now im missing some pre TRT numbers that i'll never know, but se la vi...

Insurance limits what docs I can see.

I am trying to increase my total dosage so i can better split the doses up, and would like to use this bio-availability info to support my claim.

But unless I can get the info from say another doctor or pharmacist mine isnt going to go by this or another book sadly. Hard enough to talk them into letting me do my own shots and weekly ones.
Based on my symptom tracking I'd like to try 75 to 100 mg every 4 to 5 days.

I'll look into those doctors to try and find a legit source, ty

 

[xqfq]

I believe what you're looking for is the "steroid weight." Basically, the molecule has an ester attached to it, and that ester weights something. Your body's enzymes remove the ester from the molecule, creating testosterone. So in theory, only the testosterone part of the molecule is what matters.

There's some information here:

About SteroidGraph

"Injectable steroids are typically bound by esters, which comprise a portion of the steroid's weight. Because of this, 100mg of, for example, testosterone enanthate does not equate to 100mg of pure testosterone. In this case, there is only 70mg of testosterone being injected, and the remaining 30mg is the enanthate ester. This is taken into account when plotting cycles on this site, as different esters have different weights."

A given person's response to the testosterone, and the variation seen between people with respect to doses / responses, has more to do with individual biochemistry than the ester weight.

I could see figuring out ester weight being important if you were e.g. switching from cypionate to undecanoate or something. But if you're already on like 100mg of cyp every 7 days, a dose adjustment should probably be made based on your own response to the dose. E.g. your labs.

 

[blinkyvx]

OMG yes, i was searching for the wrong terms. "steriod weight" ty ty!

yes "should" [ we all know it rarely works like that with doctors], rather ideally dose based on my symptoms.

My fear is i will get into "normal" range and not reach QOLs i am looking for... So the doctor willl not increase dose as im "normal" Thus extra information can be useful

-sex drive
-mood stable
-sleep quality
- that "zest for life"

 

[xqfq]

I would measure total testosterone, SHBG, CBC (for albumin). Then calculate your true bioavailable using e.g. https://tru-t.org (several posts on this - search Tru-T in this forum).

If your doctor is giving push back on an adjustment, you could try ordering this test, which is a more accurate Free T test:

Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS- No Upper Limit

In my experience, doctors like single labs that show a value is or isn't in range.

This may also help you monitor yourself over time. I use it:

Free TRT Analyzer App to Track Your Progress

 

[blinkyvx]

at my second lab draw [trough] my test values were actually lower than my first draw [prior to starting Test] was interesting.

Ill try asking for that lab,they really seem against any test that you ask for, least my experiences...

part of my issue and i assume others,is doctors only looking at labs though, not patient symptoms. The whole treating lab numbers not the patient...

"For men and women on testosterone replacement doses, this panel is not justified " if he sees this he won't do it im guessing

 

[Cataceous]

It's pretty straightforward. You look up the molecular weight of the ester and divide the molecular weight of testosterone by it.

 

[madman]

I cant find info online or if the info from my book is correct. Basically when we take X amount inject able testosterone our bodies only uses X amount as bio-available?

I.E from the "definitive TRT manual"

100mg Injectable Propionate yields 83mg
100mg Injectable enanthate yields 72mg
100mg Injectable Cypionate yields 70mg
100mg Injectable Undecanoate yields 63mg

True? if so aside from my book where can i find i info to show my doctor.
Currently on IM 100mg cypionate Q7 days

Forget worrying about molecular weight of different esters and how many milligrams of active T is usable once the ester is cleaved.

The two most common esters used when treating men with trt are testosterone enanthate or testosterone cypionate and the difference between the concentration of T is minimal.

What should be your main concern is what dose of T is needed in order to attain a TT that will result in a healthy FT level in order to experience relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

Although TT is important to know......FT is what truly matters as it is the unbound active fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

Most men do well having FT levels in the 30 ng/dL range and some may need/choose to run slightly higher levels.

You need to be testing at trough.....TT/FT/E2 and depending on where your levels sit and whether there is relief/improvement of low-t symptoms or lack there of than your T dose may need to be increased slightly until you achieve a FT level which results in symptom relief.

Although treating low-t symptoms is what truly matters......labs are critical as not only will they let us know what TT/FT/E2 level is achieved on said dose of T let alone.....whether hormone levels may be too low or too high.....but most importantly how said dose of T effects ones overall health markers.

As you stated you are injecting 100 mg/week.....how long have you been on said dose?

Blood work should be done at 6 weeks at trough once levels have stabilized as T levels will be in flux during the weeks leading up until levels stabilize.

It is critical after 6-8 weeks on such protocol (dose T/injection frequency) to have blood work done to see where your TT/FT/E2 levels sit.....let alone overall health markers which will include hemoglobin/hematocrit/rbc's.

Your doctor is an idiot if he is just strictly concerned about lab numbers/ranges and ignoring your lack of relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well being.

You need to find a new doctor if he expects you to stay in a specific range regarding TT/FT levels that do not provide you all the beneficial effects of having healthy FT levels.

 

[blinkyvx]

Ty and i agree. Im due for new labs and just did my injection today. From my symptom tracker i seem to respond best to more frequent doses.

And one of the doctors mentioned above spoke of daily injections to maintsin stable testosterone levels.

My HCT is already high but i was also not drinking much water that day... 51% i think

Ty for advice.

If i injected today when should i get a lab draw 5 days?

 

[blinkyvx]

So got my RX re fill and he wants to do labs.

If my shot was 9/9/19 should i go in on monday for a trough level?
as well as the sensitive E2 test, D3.

I assume my HCT will be even higher than last time and he may stop my doses,should i try to find some where to donate whole blood prior to my lab draw?

HCT was 53% on 7/15/19 as well as below labs.

SHBG was only 22.6 [ref13.3-89.5]
free test 2.6 [ ref 4.9-19]
total level 119 [ ref 175-981]
test bio available 65.7 [ ref 115-446]
albumin 4.7 [ref 3.2-4.8]

On 3/9/19
DHEA 220 [ref 106-464
prolactin 6.2
estradiol [ unsure if sensitive] 21 [ Ref male < 47]
Cortisol 18 [ ref<10 according to time it was taken]

Was thinking of starting Tongkat ali , but my SHBG seems lowish?