Feel worse with higher test levels

[SpyrosB]

Pray tell.

What is the point of "telling" when you have already clearly developed a bias against anything I might say in this thread since initially disagreeing with you? All that's going to do is have you finding ways to misinterpret it in order to prove it wrong. When you feel like challenging it rationally and constructively you will do so on another thread. Our goal should be finding out what's actually right - not being right from the start.

Besides, my initial comment here demonstrates most of my logic.

 

[Wolverine]

20mg daily injections

One click (50mg) atrevis based compounded gel to scrotum had my TT levels at 888, FT at 211 (35-155) and DHT at 287 (12-65). This was 9 hours after application. Your DHT and E were in range on this dosage?

 

[DS3]

It allows too wide a degree of variation in an otherwise too predictable system.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[tareload]

Your point is understood. Subjective response is, however, one of the more important variables in the context of TRT. Quantifiable measurements do not tell us how we feel. What good does it do a person to have perfect labs yet feel unwell?

Agreed and part of the tradeoff...opposing functions to optimize. Subjective feelings vs probability of long term implications based on science we know to date. Individual must decide that risk tolerance which will change weighting of functions and hence max dose they are willing to run.

 

[DS3]

Agreed and part of the tradeoff...opposing functions to optimize. Subjective feelings vs probability of long term implications based on science we know to date. Individual must decide that risk tolerance which will change weighting of functions and hence max dose they are willing to run.

Agreed. Risk versus reward is something we all must determine for ourselves. Most men tinkering with their hormones would agree to a slightly higher risk profile for feeling well versus lower risk and feeling unwell. Risk and well being do not necessarily have an inverse relationship, however. But in the case of higher dosing and/or polypharmacy, the two variables inversely related.

 

[tareload]

Agreed. Risk versus reward is something we all must determine for ourselves. Most men tinkering with their hormones would agree to a slightly higher risk profile for feeling well versus lower risk and feeling unwell. Risk and well being do not necessarily have an inverse relationship, however. But in the case of higher dosing and/or polypharmacy, the two variables inversely related.

Yes thank you for clarifying. Antecedent was TOT or blast cruise type arrangement. Good clarification.

 

[tareload]

We have the same HPTA, which produces and responds to the same substances, in a predictable manner, and which substances produce predictable effects across every human bar those with genetic insensitivity, who are extremely rare

I wonder what could go wrong (propagation of variation/error) in the context of supraphysiological exogenous hormone use and its effects on HPTA / thyroid / neutotransmitters / brain?

Pop quiz coming this week. Such a simplified diagram but I will be checking it out. Good icebreaker at your next cocktail party?

 

[SpyrosB]

I wonder what could go wrong (propagation of variation/error) in the context of supraphysiological exogenous hormone use and its effects on HPTA / thyroid / neutotransmitters / brain?

Pop quiz coming this week. Such a simplified diagram but I will be checking it out. Good icebreaker at your next cocktail party?

View attachment 28291

Why do you feel the need to antagonise me? Will it be my fault now if I tell you you’re being embarrassing and immature? You are attacking a strawman, I don’t even know how your picture is supposed to go against my arguments.
On top of that, If you truly believe the situation that concerns us is as complicated as the diagram you posted, what exactly are you even doing here? Better go back to those doctors who have such an amazing understanding of this extremely complicated situation that they offer you one injection of test every 2 weeks. Stop “readingalot” and Leave it to the experts.

Maybe I should make my point stronger by posting a very detailed diagram analysis of a muscle, and then tell you you can’t claim that something so simple as lifting heavy things up and putting them back down makes it grow.

Embarrassing!

 

[tareload]

Why do you feel the need to antagonise me? Will it be my fault now if I tell you you’re being embarrassing and immature? You are attacking a strawman, I don’t even know how your picture is supposed to go against my arguments.
On top of that, If you truly believe the situation that concerns us is as complicated as the diagram you posted, what exactly are you even doing here? Better go back to those doctors who have such an amazing understanding of this extremely complicated situation that they offer you one injection of test every 2 weeks. Stop “readingalot” and Leave it to the experts.

Maybe I should make my point stronger by posting a very detailed diagram analysis of a muscle, and then tell you you can’t claim that something so simple as lifting heavy things up and putting them back down makes it grow.

Embarrassing!

Was not trying to antagonize you. Clearly my bar for embarrassing myself must be set too high. Thank you for letting me know I have embarrassed myself. I was actually quite enjoying this thread. I better go back and reread the thread to better understand how I attacked the strawman.

BTW, welcome to the board.

 

[SpyrosB]

Was not trying to antagonize you. Clearly my bar for embarrassing myself must be set too high. Thank you for letting me know I have embarrassed myself. I was actually quite enjoying this thread. I better go back and reread the thread to better understand how I attacked the strawman.

BTW, welcome to the board.

Well if I misunderstood your intentions then I apologise, I got the feeling you were trying to irk me on. Thanks.

 

[tareload]

Well if I misunderstood your intentions then I apologise, I got the feeling you were trying to irk me on. Thanks.

Absolutely. I am just a PITA. You can check with @DS3 about that. This thread has potential so I will do my best to keep the dialogue constructive. I am still trying to understand what I need to try and refute to pose a proper strawman argument .

Look forward to more discussion here.

 

[DS3]

Absolutely. I am just a PITA. You can check with @DS3 about that. This thread has potential so I will do my best to keep the dialogue constructive. I am still trying to understand what I need to try and refute to pose a proper strawman argument .

Look forward to more discussion here.

Lol

 

[45ACP]

I’m seeing a lot more post with people who have test levels above 1000 who feel crappy. Even with everything else in range e2, DHT, prolactin etc. I’ve also have seen post of people almost using microdose amounts and feeling way better. My question is, is this the new thing? Because my doctor thinks higher the levels the better I should feel. I’m on 20mg a day. With 1 click of 200mg/ml of cream once daily applied to scrotum. And this was with my labs of test being 1500 and everything else being in range. But I just feel crappy as well- low libido and mood, fatigue, increased in belly fat even though I have a physical job and eat decently well while doing intermittent fasting.

Now 64 years old - male.

The most important thing is that everyone is different no two people are alike - the best method is trial and error - unfortunately you are exposed to The Good The Bad and The Ugly.
So after 8 months I figured out what works best for me. And when I am weight training 200 mg of testosterone cypionate every 10 days works best.
And when I'm not weight training 100 mg of testosterone cypionate every 12 days works best for me.
And of course HCG is necessary always. And for me it's 500 IU every other day.
And yes it's expensive - in combination - however the results are tremendous for me personally
Experimenting is the only way to find out what works....

 

[Smokey]

I’m seeing a lot more post with people who have test levels above 1000 who feel crappy. Even with everything else in range e2, DHT, prolactin etc. I’ve also have seen post of people almost using microdose amounts and feeling way better. My question is, is this the new thing? Because my doctor thinks higher the levels the better I should feel. I’m on 20mg a day. With 1 click of 200mg/ml of cream once daily applied to scrotum. And this was with my labs of test being 1500 and everything else being in range. But I just feel crappy as well- low libido and mood, fatigue, increased in belly fat even though I have a physical job and eat decently well while doing intermittent fasting.

I feel like adding in HCG 500IU twice weekly will eliminate most of your problems above. 20mg per day drove my estrogen way too high (65). Lower your dose and add HCG and see what happens. Cycling it 6-8 weeks on 4-6 weeks off works for me. If I stay on HCG all the time my estrogen drives up and I dont do well on estrogen blockers except DIM.

 

[apsjiml]

I’m seeing a lot more post with people who have test levels above 1000 who feel crappy. Even with everything else in range e2, DHT, prolactin etc. I’ve also have seen post of people almost using microdose amounts and feeling way better. My question is, is this the new thing? Because my doctor thinks higher the levels the better I should feel. I’m on 20mg a day. With 1 click of 200mg/ml of cream once daily applied to scrotum. And this was with my labs of test being 1500 and everything else being in range. But I just feel crappy as well- low libido and mood, fatigue, increased in belly fat even though I have a physical job and eat decently well while doing intermittent fasting.

What is your shbg level? Free t3? Free t4 ? Tsh ?

 

[NeverSayNeverAgain]

They good thing about creams is you can adjust dosage by where you apply it, so maybe only do half of the click on scrotum and half inner thigh or better yet just switch to inner thighs and go from there.

 

[Nujace]

10-15mg of Test cyp daily, shallow IM is where I felt my best on TRT. More than that was overstimulating my brain and caused me to look for substances to abuse to relax my mind and body. Stuff like THC, alcohol, phenibut etc… Not large amounts of these things but still not things that are healthy used daily. A lower total testosterone level seems to eliminate the psychological need to alter my mind routinely. Too high test levels tend to make me impulsive and more likely to make bad decisions. Maybe not bad but not the smartest.

I’m not advocating anyone else try this but currently I’m experimenting with Trestolone (Ment) for my HRT. No testosterone at all. Using 2-4mg daily. No bloodwork to confirm things yet but I feel better than I have in years. And I believe it has solved the so-so libido issue I’ve had when all my key indicators and levels of hormones and such were not only in range but ideal. My libido is fantastic using low dose Ment with no testosterone. I’m looking forward to seeing what blood work indicates with this protocol.

 

[Russo]

10-15mg of Test cyp daily, shallow IM is where I felt my best on TRT. More than that was overstimulating my brain and caused me to look for substances to abuse to relax my mind and body. Stuff like THC, alcohol, phenibut etc… Not large amounts of these things but still not things that are healthy used daily. A lower total testosterone level seems to eliminate the psychological need to alter my mind routinely. Too high test levels tend to make me impulsive and more likely to make bad decisions. Maybe not bad but not the smartest.

I’m not advocating anyone else try this but currently I’m experimenting with Trestolone (Ment) for my HRT. No testosterone at all. Using 2-4mg daily. No bloodwork to confirm things yet but I feel better than I have in years. And I believe it has solved the so-so libido issue I’ve had when all my key indicators and levels of hormones and such were not only in range but ideal. My libido is fantastic using low dose Ment with no testosterone. I’m looking forward to seeing what blood work indicates with this protocol.

Can you update?