Exogenous Estrogen

[JackSwole]

39yrs old, 260lbs
Iinitial labs had estradiol at 127.4 pg/ml)
Began aromasin at 12.5mg 3x wk
Two weeks later labs failed to detect estradiol (<2.5 pg/ml). In other words, crashed. Empirical symptoms consistent with low estrogen.

This is not the first time I’ve crashed my estrogen to undetectable levels and frankly, it’s getting annoying. Especially when prepping for a competition. I’ve crashed 3 times before on arimidex. Each time I’ve returned to using an AI I have lowered the dose. After the last crash I did a little more research, spoke with some knowledgeable people and decided to try aromasin. Same results. I have never taken an AI proactively, it is only after high estrogen symptoms are confirmed by labs. I believe I am an over-responder to AI’s.

I’m up to date on the current body of advice in the wake of estrogen crash - wait it out, stop taking the AI, do fewer injections but higher amounts, do IM injections, use dhea, hcg, pregnenolone, etc…

For those of us who have crashed E2 and felt its crippling effects, relief cannot come soon enough. And while the advice may be sound, it also seems a little anemic for what in my mind has been the most profound negative side effect from testosterone use and management. I suspect that is because there are relatively few of us that have really been in the shit with regard to crashed estrogen.

This is not a thread for the guys that have no trouble with managing estrogen or whom have never crashed it. This is for those of us whose estrogen is like two fat kids on a teeter totter with a fulcrum as fine as a razor.

With all the use of hormones and ancillaries, why haven’t we considered exogenous management of estrogen/estradiol? Two drugs, an AI and exogenous estradiol could solve this problem, couldn’t it? The AI (like aromasin) used in a high enough dose to eliminate aromatization (and in so doing wipe out all endogenous estrogen) paired with low dose exogenous estradiol (eg Estrace) would allow us to “dial in” estradiol, would it not? Am I missing something here? If that is too great a leap, what about simply using exogenous estradiol as a first response to an estrogen crash? Perhaps a short course of low dose?

On the other we have recovery from a crash. Would clomid help? We all know that clomid has two isomers, zuclomifene which is estrogenic and enclomifene which is antiestrogneic. Depending on the tissue and the isomer, clomid can produce positive or negative effects (greatly simplified). Could it help restore the most commonly associated negative side effects of an estrogen crash - namely libido, energy, and sense of well being? Could it expedite recovery?

I know what many of you are thinking. Wait it out. Wait it out. I’ve done that, I will do that again if necessary, but I think its time we l advanced the cause for those of us for whom this is a major issue.

Jack

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I have used low dose estradiol creams from Empower Pharmacy when I crashed my estradiol years ago with oxandrolone.

 

[Gman86]

39yrs old, 260lbs
Iinitial labs had estradiol at 127.4 pg/ml)
Began aromasin at 12.5mg 3x wk
Two weeks later labs failed to detect estradiol (<2.5 pg/ml). In other words, crashed. Empirical symptoms consistent with low estrogen.
This is not the first time I’ve crashed my estrogen to undetectable levels and frankly, it’s getting annoying. Especially when prepping for a competition. I’ve crashed 3 times before on arimidex. Each time I’ve returned to using an AI I have lowered the dose. After the last crash I did a little more research, spoke with some knowledgeable people and decided to try aromasin. Same results. I have never taken an AI proactively, it is only after high estrogen symptoms are confirmed by labs. I believe I am an over-responder to AI’s.
I’m up to date on the current body of advice in the wake of estrogen crash - wait it out, stop taking the AI, do fewer injections but higher amounts, do IM injections, use dhea, hcg, pregnenolone, etc…
For those of us who have crashed E2 and felt its crippling effects, relief cannot come soon enough. And while the advice may be sound, it also seems a little anemic for what in my mind has been the most profound negative side effect from testosterone use and management. I suspect that is because there are relatively few of us that have really been in the shit with regard to crashed estrogen.
This is not a thread for the guys that have no trouble with managing estrogen or whom have never crashed it. This is for those of us whose estrogen is like two fat kids on a teeter totter with a fulcrum as fine as a razor.
With all the use of hormones and ancillaries, why haven’t we considered exogenous management of estrogen/estradiol? Two drugs, an AI and exogenous estradiol could solve this problem, couldn’t it? The AI (like aromasin) used in a high enough dose to eliminate aromatization (and in so doing wipe out all endogenous estrogen) paired with low dose exogenous estradiol (eg Estrace) would allow us to “dial in” estradiol, would it not? Am I missing something here?
If that is too great a leap, what about simply using exogenous estradiol as a first response to an estrogen crash? Perhaps a short course of low dose?
On the other we have recovery from a crash. Would clomid help? We all know that clomid has two isomers, zuclomifene which is estrogenic and enclomifene which is antiestrogneic. Depending on the tissue and the isomer, clomid can produce positive or negative effects (greatly simplified). Could it help restore the most commonly associated negative side effects of an estrogen crash? Namely libido, energy, and sense of well being? Could it expedite recovery?
I know what many of you are thinking. Wait it out. Wait it out. I’ve done that, I will do that again if necessary, but I think its time we advanced the cause for those of us for whom this is a major issue.
Jack

I think you’re going to be hard pressed to find anyone willing to add exogenous estrogen to the mix, but I don’t want to speak for everyone. The most obvious answer would probably be to just temporarily increase testosterone to get E2 up faster.

I’m recently coming off of low E2, as well, so I feel your pain. It’s taking forever for my libido to come back it feels like. My doctor allowed me to permanently up my test dose a little bit, due to me wanting free T to be a little higher. So I’ve been just taking the slightly higher dose of test, and waiting it out. But trust me, it’s not easy, so I get where you’re coming from.

And I eat my words, not only did you get someone that is on board with adding estrogen cream to raise crashed E2, but you got the forum creator out of all people lol.

 

[JackSwole]

I have used low dose estradiol creams from Empower Pharmacy when I crashed my estradiol years ago with oxandrolone.

Did it offer any relief of low e2 symptoms? If so, and I know it’s far from a double blind, was the effect quicker than waiting it out?

Along those same lines, might I expect aromatase recovery to take longer with Aromasin vs adex considering their respective mode of action?

I think you’re going to be hard pressed to find anyone willing to add exogenous estrogen to the mix

I know, but it’s funny isn’t it? There is an almost palpable recoil to the suggestion that exogenous estrogen may help. I suppose it has something to do with the mythos surrounding the hormone.

Still, I’m glad to hear there is some experience there with exogenous estrogen. After reading, ad nauseam, about how to balance estrogen (while actually managing testosterone), it just seemed as though we are ignoring the elephant in the room - which is to manage both.

 

[Gman86]

Did it offer any relief of low e2 symptoms? If so, and I know it’s far from a double blind, was the effect quicker than waiting it out?

Along those same lines, might I expect aromatase recovery to take longer with Aromasin vs adex considering their respective mode of action?



I know, but it’s funny isn’t it? There is an almost palpable recoil to the suggestion that exogenous estrogen may help. I suppose it has something to do with the mythos surrounding the hormone.

Still, I’m glad to hear there is some experience there with exogenous estrogen. After reading, ad nauseam, about how to balance estrogen (while actually managing testosterone), it just seemed as though we are ignoring the elephant in the room - which is to manage both.

Ya I think it’s just a matter of most guys would rather take the approach of just increasing test and letting aromatization do its thing, rather than getting prescribed another medication. But you’re definitely not wrong, it does seem like estrogen cream could be a quick fix when waiting it out seems unbearable. I also use Aromasin, so I’m curious if the time for E2 to come back is different than anastrozole. For me, it’s only been 2 weeks since I upped my test dose, and still have very low libido and low penile sensitivity, but 2 weeks really isn’t that long I guess.

 

[JackSwole]

Ya I think it’s just a matter of most guys would rather take the approach of just increasing test and letting aromatization do its thing

As long as we are ceding control of estrogen management to aromatization I believe we are operating on a very slippery slope, one with many variables, some of which we may not be even aware. I believe this has been seen time and time again. It only takes a simple search on a forum to reveal numerous "my estrogen is too high/low" posts. Most of which reiterate my own experience. Certainly it is not the most concerning issue for the majority of trt patients, which is why I don't believe it's been given enough consideration, but for those of use who are on that teeter totter it is difficult to sit back and hope the AI/SERM is the correct choice, hope the dosage is correct, maintain testosterone dosage exactly, watch for interactions with other medications, supplements, and diet, not get any fatter or leaner (remember aromatase has a direct relationship with adipose tissue), etc....

 

[Nelson Vergel]

This is one of the most discussed topics here.

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