Most would, I imagine. One can also do major research and attempt to find it "via other means". There is risk involved in that and I'm not openly advocating that, but one could probably get somewhat accurately dosed, and clean product from non-traditional sources.
Does anyone use Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) ?
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Most would, I imagine. One can also do major research and attempt to find it "via other means". There is risk involved in that and I'm not openly advocating that, but one could probably get somewhat accurately dosed, and clean product from non-traditional sources.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
I am going to ask that no further discussion of non-traditional sources for Nandrolone take place in this thread.
Many thanks.
I echo Paul-E's sentiments. The key to any medication is risk reward assessment and knowing your body and how it responds to certain meds. To be flippant (and I hope I've not given that impression) about this stuff is not wise.
Indeed, I monitor my blood pressure daily and blood glucose on a weekly bases (at home). I will follow lipids and CRP at minimum in 2 months. I'll also get a prolactin.
If I get any bloat or struggle with BP, I'll simply stop. Not worth it. We'll see. Stay tuned.
o.k. 1 week on NPP (short ester version of nandrolone). I have been taking cabergoline 0.25 mg so I know it's not a prolactin issue. My nipples are not sore, not swollen, and no discharge, but when cold or even rubbing my shirt, the very tips of the nipples stand out "erect" more than I really like. I'm taking Arimidex and have lowered my Tcyp back down, and I do not think this is an E2 issue.
It's not "glandular", just the nipple (not surrounding) which is doing this. I'm going to give it another week but if persists it's enough to make me want to stop it. (this is why i chose NPP versus Decanoate also).
Stay tuned.
It's not "glandular", just the nipple (not surrounding) which is doing this. I'm going to give it another week but if persists it's enough to make me want to stop it. (this is why i chose NPP versus Decanoate also).
Stay tuned.
o.k. so....... I'll admit that I had to read up a lot about NPP versus Decanoate. Some of the "bro science" behind reasons for taking NPP have been quicker to take effect, less bloat, overall less side effects, and just a perceived better compound than the longer ester. My own reasoning, which is also what the bro's use as a reason, is that I had no idea how my body would respond to a 19-Nor compound.....
After just 1 week I feel that I did have increased anabolism (200 mg total per week), and had I continued, I would/could have put on some very legit muscle mass.
However, in spite of "prophylactic" Cabergoline and ample Arimidex, my NIPPLES only (no glandular hypertrophy, no sensititivity, no puffiness), were as I can only describe as "Perky". The nipple only, not areola. They just stood out, as if after a "titty twister" or being cold. Like a woman, turned on.
So, after my last injection of 70 mg NPP (on Friday), I'm calling it quits. It has a 2.5 day t1/2, so it should rapidly clear my system this week. It's just not worth it to me, and I've experimented a bit with other "compounds" in the past, but nothing has done this to my nipples.
Speculation: The one thing which I am willing to concede is that the NPP may have brought on Nandrolone changes fast enough to cause this change. Perhaps, Decanoate would not have done this, and of course, EVERYTHING is dose related.
Reading up on the bro forums, it's extremely interesting how each person differs in his response to varying anabolics and androgens. It completely needs to be individualized.
Another issue to keep in mind is to take things slow, keep doses reasonable, and do NOT change too many variables so that you can isolate the causative agent. For me, this time, it is clear that Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (was the old, short lived, commercially available "Durabolin" but discontinued because of need for frequent injections. When Organon came out with longer acting Decanoate ester, then DC'd production of NPP/Durabolin).
Interesting experiment. I'm not advocating experimenting. Indeed I had a good deal of "congnitive dissonance" on this one since I knew I was probably pushing doses a bit high, and that is overall inconsistent with my overall goal of HEALTH first.
In no way am I suggesting that low dose Nandrolone can not be a worthy addition to ones TRT protocol, as Nelson has described in Built To Survive. Perhaps it's all dose related, but also keep in mind that we will all, as unique individuals, respond very differently to different substances.
Anyway, I promised a follow up. There you have it.....
After just 1 week I feel that I did have increased anabolism (200 mg total per week), and had I continued, I would/could have put on some very legit muscle mass.
However, in spite of "prophylactic" Cabergoline and ample Arimidex, my NIPPLES only (no glandular hypertrophy, no sensititivity, no puffiness), were as I can only describe as "Perky". The nipple only, not areola. They just stood out, as if after a "titty twister" or being cold. Like a woman, turned on.
So, after my last injection of 70 mg NPP (on Friday), I'm calling it quits. It has a 2.5 day t1/2, so it should rapidly clear my system this week. It's just not worth it to me, and I've experimented a bit with other "compounds" in the past, but nothing has done this to my nipples.
Speculation: The one thing which I am willing to concede is that the NPP may have brought on Nandrolone changes fast enough to cause this change. Perhaps, Decanoate would not have done this, and of course, EVERYTHING is dose related.
Reading up on the bro forums, it's extremely interesting how each person differs in his response to varying anabolics and androgens. It completely needs to be individualized.
Another issue to keep in mind is to take things slow, keep doses reasonable, and do NOT change too many variables so that you can isolate the causative agent. For me, this time, it is clear that Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (was the old, short lived, commercially available "Durabolin" but discontinued because of need for frequent injections. When Organon came out with longer acting Decanoate ester, then DC'd production of NPP/Durabolin).
Interesting experiment. I'm not advocating experimenting. Indeed I had a good deal of "congnitive dissonance" on this one since I knew I was probably pushing doses a bit high, and that is overall inconsistent with my overall goal of HEALTH first.
In no way am I suggesting that low dose Nandrolone can not be a worthy addition to ones TRT protocol, as Nelson has described in Built To Survive. Perhaps it's all dose related, but also keep in mind that we will all, as unique individuals, respond very differently to different substances.
Anyway, I promised a follow up. There you have it.....
CoastWatcher
Moderator
Thanks for bringing us along on an interesting ride.
Sean Reed
Banned
Here is s little piece I wrote on NPP. It is a much better choice than Deca
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (NPP) is an anabolic steroid that is very similar to but also different from Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca). Confusing? Allow me to explain.
Deca is a compound with an excellent anabolic to androgenic ratio. It does many fantastic things. Unfortunately, it also does some not so fantastic things. The drawbacks of Deca are linked to the extremely long acting Decanoate ester. Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is a much shorter acting/estered compound.
NPP was the first Nandrolone compound sold. Organon brought it to market in the 1950’s. Soon after Organon released its Decanoate cousin.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate has never been as popular as the long estered Deca, in part due to availability but also misinformation. However, once people use this compound and discover that it does not have the negative side effects of Deca they become fans.
The main problems of Deca stem from the fact that it is around forever. You will test positive for Deca many, many months after discontinuing use. Worse, Deca can cause erectile dysfunction. If you load up on the compound problems can arise which take time to resolve.
Deca can cause erectile dysfunction via increasing prolactin. It is true that prolactin can be managed with cabergolin or pramipexel, but some may not want to use these compounds for a long period of time.
NPP does not pose a long term problem. If prolactin rises and I have to use cab/prami to treat erectile dysfunction it is only for a very short period.
NPP has numerous therapeutic and performance benefits. The Nandrolone hormone is the most commonly prescribed anabolic steroid other than testosterone, but the Decanoate version is the most commonly prescribed Nandrolone form. The medical community lags behind the steroid community in regards to understanding most compounds. It will probably be 5-10 years before the medical community understands why NPP is preferred over Deca.
In any case, Nandrolone is one of the most well tolerated steroids in both performance and medical settings.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is a 19-nortestosterone (19-nor) steroid. The 19-nor classification refers to a structural change of the testosterone hormone in that the carbon atom has been removed at the 19th position. This simple structural change gives us Nandrolone, and by adding the short Phenylpropionate ester we have Nandrolone Phenylpropionate.
In the case of NPP we have a shorter ester version that gives a larger burst of Nandrolone after injection, but also carries a much shorter half-life. This means NPP has to be injected more frequently if blood levels are to remain stable. Spacing NPP injections every third day will ensure stable blood levels.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is slightly more anabolic than testosterone with a rating of 125 compared to testosterone’s rating of 100. It is also significantly less androgenic, with a rating of 37 compared to testosterone’s rating of 100.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is also significantly less estrogenic than testosterone.
Both Nandrolone and testosterone aromatize, but Nandrolone only does so at approximately 20% the rate of testosterone.
NPP increases IGF-1 production. It also reduces cortisol. Cortisol results from hard training and stress and forces protein from the muscle. It also stimulates fat production, so suppression of this hormone is very important.
NPP increases nitrogen retention.
NPP increases collagen synthesis and bone mineral content which increases the bodies ability to repair injuries.
NPP does all these wonderful things without risking the problems associated with the long term form of Nandrolone.
Here is how I use it. I am on a trt dose of 300 mgs/week. In other places I discuss the cutting edge medical communities view that 300 is safe for robust individuals. If I want to use NPP (usually to heal up an injury) I drop my test to 200/week, and then add 150 mgs of NPP. I usually get significant healing within a month and then discontinue the NPP.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (NPP) is an anabolic steroid that is very similar to but also different from Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca). Confusing? Allow me to explain.
Deca is a compound with an excellent anabolic to androgenic ratio. It does many fantastic things. Unfortunately, it also does some not so fantastic things. The drawbacks of Deca are linked to the extremely long acting Decanoate ester. Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is a much shorter acting/estered compound.
NPP was the first Nandrolone compound sold. Organon brought it to market in the 1950’s. Soon after Organon released its Decanoate cousin.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate has never been as popular as the long estered Deca, in part due to availability but also misinformation. However, once people use this compound and discover that it does not have the negative side effects of Deca they become fans.
The main problems of Deca stem from the fact that it is around forever. You will test positive for Deca many, many months after discontinuing use. Worse, Deca can cause erectile dysfunction. If you load up on the compound problems can arise which take time to resolve.
Deca can cause erectile dysfunction via increasing prolactin. It is true that prolactin can be managed with cabergolin or pramipexel, but some may not want to use these compounds for a long period of time.
NPP does not pose a long term problem. If prolactin rises and I have to use cab/prami to treat erectile dysfunction it is only for a very short period.
NPP has numerous therapeutic and performance benefits. The Nandrolone hormone is the most commonly prescribed anabolic steroid other than testosterone, but the Decanoate version is the most commonly prescribed Nandrolone form. The medical community lags behind the steroid community in regards to understanding most compounds. It will probably be 5-10 years before the medical community understands why NPP is preferred over Deca.
In any case, Nandrolone is one of the most well tolerated steroids in both performance and medical settings.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is a 19-nortestosterone (19-nor) steroid. The 19-nor classification refers to a structural change of the testosterone hormone in that the carbon atom has been removed at the 19th position. This simple structural change gives us Nandrolone, and by adding the short Phenylpropionate ester we have Nandrolone Phenylpropionate.
In the case of NPP we have a shorter ester version that gives a larger burst of Nandrolone after injection, but also carries a much shorter half-life. This means NPP has to be injected more frequently if blood levels are to remain stable. Spacing NPP injections every third day will ensure stable blood levels.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is slightly more anabolic than testosterone with a rating of 125 compared to testosterone’s rating of 100. It is also significantly less androgenic, with a rating of 37 compared to testosterone’s rating of 100.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate is also significantly less estrogenic than testosterone.
Both Nandrolone and testosterone aromatize, but Nandrolone only does so at approximately 20% the rate of testosterone.
NPP increases IGF-1 production. It also reduces cortisol. Cortisol results from hard training and stress and forces protein from the muscle. It also stimulates fat production, so suppression of this hormone is very important.
NPP increases nitrogen retention.
NPP increases collagen synthesis and bone mineral content which increases the bodies ability to repair injuries.
NPP does all these wonderful things without risking the problems associated with the long term form of Nandrolone.
Here is how I use it. I am on a trt dose of 300 mgs/week. In other places I discuss the cutting edge medical communities view that 300 is safe for robust individuals. If I want to use NPP (usually to heal up an injury) I drop my test to 200/week, and then add 150 mgs of NPP. I usually get significant healing within a month and then discontinue the NPP.
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You only mention NPP in terms of IGF and collagen synthesis. But isn't this also true for Deca? Just trying to understand. thank you. Very informative
I should also add that even though it seems it may take 2 wks for ramped up Collagen III synthesis, I did notice a relief of my C-spine tenderness with movement. My neck has been stiff for a while now and I can't imagine this being placebo as I was surprised to "notice" that my neck wasn't stiff at all like it almost always is. For example, it can be uncomfortable with looking 90 degrees to the right or left, and this seemed to go away during my brief experiment with Nandrolone. As I said before, I do not think it was placebo and I also do not think I was carrying much bloat, but maybe a bit more than norm in spite of ramping up Arimidex to what I imagine would drive my E2 down quite a bit.
That being said, it does seem early for collagen synthesis to explain the relief..... I just don't know.
Again, just sharing some experiences.
That being said, it does seem early for collagen synthesis to explain the relief..... I just don't know.
Again, just sharing some experiences.
Sean Reed
Banned
Mike: "You only mention NPP in terms of IGF and collagen synthesis. But isn't this also true for Deca? Just trying to understand. thank you. Very informative"
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (NPP) and Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) are both the same parent compound. The difference is the ester (as a general rule, esters are necessary in order for our bodies to utilize a compound).
NPP has a fairly short half life, around 2.5 days. Deca has an extremely long half life. Deca can cause ED/prolactin issues that can linger for a very long time (ask me how I know). If you run into problem with NPP they can go away very quickly. That is the difference.
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (NPP) and Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) are both the same parent compound. The difference is the ester (as a general rule, esters are necessary in order for our bodies to utilize a compound).
NPP has a fairly short half life, around 2.5 days. Deca has an extremely long half life. Deca can cause ED/prolactin issues that can linger for a very long time (ask me how I know). If you run into problem with NPP they can go away very quickly. That is the difference.
Sean Reed
Banned
BTW...NPP/Deca do smooth sore joints, etc., but if you want to actually heal the injury permanently GH is a much better option. I notice that this web site does not cover GH. GH is very expensive (and that is IF your doctor will prescribe it for you). A cheaper option is MK-677.
If your GH levels are low (look at the IGF-1 labs to find out) your body is going to have a very hard time healing itself, period. My levels were very low, 70 ng/dl. I adjusted them to normal/high normal and my body is much more regenerative
If your GH levels are low (look at the IGF-1 labs to find out) your body is going to have a very hard time healing itself, period. My levels were very low, 70 ng/dl. I adjusted them to normal/high normal and my body is much more regenerative
Sean Reed
Banned
No problem, GA. I am 54. Still hang with the kids on the mat in the ring. Yes, my natural levels were very low. The old man range for IGF-1 (the most reliable way to measure GH levels) is 60 to n192 ng/dl.
70 put me very low, even for an old man. I have access to pharm GH but even with my hook ups it would still run me $800 a month. I used to run Grey Tops. The underground market on GH is rife with bunk and or underdosed GH.
I was fortunate enough to have access to Grey tops (there are only 2 sources I trust) at a reasonable price. I had to lay out a ton of money up front to China, and then wait a month. Keep in mind they were coming in and had to get past customs.
However, I am was really uncomfortable importing them. I have a family that needs me and I like sleeping in my own bed. Put simply, I don't ant to risk breaking the law and that is what drew me to MK-677. There is a ton, and I mean a ton of academic literature proving the effectiveness of this compound. I have a prescription now as top TRT Docs are aware of the importance of good GH levels in term of health.
I take just enough to put myself between normal and high normal. I am genuinely shocked that they are not a big part of this forum. MK-677 is now legal.
Low GH is very unhealthy. It causes all sorts of problems. I was always worried that GH causes cancer, but studies have shown that low GH makes your body more vulnerable to cancer, and high normal levels increase your bodies ability fight cancer and sickness.
My skin is better, my sleep is better. In terms of muscle gains, I probably only gained 5 lbs of muscle a year...but those gains, unlike steroids, are permanent.
Before MK-677 I would run a little less than 2 iu's of GH a day. Like I said, that amount can improve your health.
Now your top IFBB pros? 10-15 or more iu's a day. And yes, that amount is dangerous.
Thanks for the info Sean. Yeah, I think that once the Life Extension (not the Trademarked folks but generally speaking) and anti-Aging clinics started churning out GH patients, the Gov't seemed to have clamped down.
GH is something which I have always said I'd have checked, and then INVESTED in the balancing of..... I am aware that if low, they should be brought up to more youthful/normal levels.
Knowing the SE's of supraphysiologic GH is important though, such as insulin resistance. But, if low, I totally agree, if you CAN, get them corrected.
We live in very interesting times. Many variables to health and wellbeing. I'm a huge believer in quality of life, but like most, I value quantity also. I do support using technology to enhance our lives. Look at all of the men whom have benefited from proper TRT with various ancillaries including low dose cialis etc. It's remarkable.
I see the opportunity for those on this forum to live very active, healthy lives (barring familial risk factor for CVD, cancer etc.) through their 70's and 80's. This would contrast with the "old man" of prior generations where, with exceptions, they just sort of withered away and became "grumpy" or extremely passive.
Also, I've always viewed medicine as a matter of risk/reward. Like dieting. If you have a strong family history of colon cancer, then a higher fiber (likely higher carb) diet may be best. However, if you have a strong history of either DM-II or insulin resistance (without colon cancer), then a very low carb diet is probably better, all things being considered. We need to "risk stratify" according to our own current health, family history, and then even beliefs based upon current data. It's all we can do.
I digress......
GH is something which I have always said I'd have checked, and then INVESTED in the balancing of..... I am aware that if low, they should be brought up to more youthful/normal levels.
Knowing the SE's of supraphysiologic GH is important though, such as insulin resistance. But, if low, I totally agree, if you CAN, get them corrected.
We live in very interesting times. Many variables to health and wellbeing. I'm a huge believer in quality of life, but like most, I value quantity also. I do support using technology to enhance our lives. Look at all of the men whom have benefited from proper TRT with various ancillaries including low dose cialis etc. It's remarkable.
I see the opportunity for those on this forum to live very active, healthy lives (barring familial risk factor for CVD, cancer etc.) through their 70's and 80's. This would contrast with the "old man" of prior generations where, with exceptions, they just sort of withered away and became "grumpy" or extremely passive.
Also, I've always viewed medicine as a matter of risk/reward. Like dieting. If you have a strong family history of colon cancer, then a higher fiber (likely higher carb) diet may be best. However, if you have a strong history of either DM-II or insulin resistance (without colon cancer), then a very low carb diet is probably better, all things being considered. We need to "risk stratify" according to our own current health, family history, and then even beliefs based upon current data. It's all we can do.
I digress......
Sean Reed
Banned
Adjusting GH to optimum levels is nearly as important as adjusting test levels. On this forum, there is not much discussion of GH, how to measure it, and how to adjust it.
I am sure that Nelson and the mods have a reason. The reason may be due to the legal grey area we run into when it comes to GH. This forum is extremely above board. Compared to others in this niche the discussions are remarkably civil and there is no discussion of illegal activities here.
99% of other PED oriented forums are really no more than structured pissing matches. Members are anonymous and the behavior is atrocious.
So, the strength of this forum is due to the fact that no one is hiding behind a fake name, but that is also the weakness of this forum, especially as it applies to GH.
If I start posting articles on GH, people are going to want to get it. IE it will create GH lust. Doctors are just now coming around to the importance of optimal GH levels. Unfortunately very few are willing to prescribe it. Even if they do prescribe it, it is prohibitively expensive. That pushes people to the black market.
That opens up a whole can of worms for this forum, and for someone like me. My name and face is out there, and I cannot be associated with anything illegal.
MK-677 is a fantastic product and should be at the top of the list for anyone on TRT. Unfortunately, our government, politicians, and the big Pharma companies do not want us using such a simple and costs effective solution. I write about this fact fully in my essay here: )
My apologies go out to the OP for hijacking this thread.
Lets see if we van get a proper thread devoted to this topic
I am sure that Nelson and the mods have a reason. The reason may be due to the legal grey area we run into when it comes to GH. This forum is extremely above board. Compared to others in this niche the discussions are remarkably civil and there is no discussion of illegal activities here.
99% of other PED oriented forums are really no more than structured pissing matches. Members are anonymous and the behavior is atrocious.
So, the strength of this forum is due to the fact that no one is hiding behind a fake name, but that is also the weakness of this forum, especially as it applies to GH.
If I start posting articles on GH, people are going to want to get it. IE it will create GH lust. Doctors are just now coming around to the importance of optimal GH levels. Unfortunately very few are willing to prescribe it. Even if they do prescribe it, it is prohibitively expensive. That pushes people to the black market.
That opens up a whole can of worms for this forum, and for someone like me. My name and face is out there, and I cannot be associated with anything illegal.
MK-677 is a fantastic product and should be at the top of the list for anyone on TRT. Unfortunately, our government, politicians, and the big Pharma companies do not want us using such a simple and costs effective solution. I write about this fact fully in my essay here: )
My apologies go out to the OP for hijacking this thread.
Lets see if we van get a proper thread devoted to this topic
bruin
Active Member
I was prescribed 150mg to 200 mg a week of nandrolone along with 100mg Cyp, which has been increased to 200mg per week today for wasting syndrome.
Im 5' 8" and was around 130, today 159, with terrific gains in lean muscle mass.
now the crux is that I have been off of nandrolone for about 3 mos, because my current dr would not prescribe it, said it was not necessary in my current physical condition.
Im now starting to drop the weight gain that i had previously made, and noticed a tapering off of appetite. Have a great gym physical routine, and very healthy good diet.
Its just difficult for me to keep weight on. I have a new Dr appt the end of April, it remains to be seen if he will support my prior regimin. If he does not, what are my choices?
Duane
Im 5' 8" and was around 130, today 159, with terrific gains in lean muscle mass.
now the crux is that I have been off of nandrolone for about 3 mos, because my current dr would not prescribe it, said it was not necessary in my current physical condition.
Im now starting to drop the weight gain that i had previously made, and noticed a tapering off of appetite. Have a great gym physical routine, and very healthy good diet.
Its just difficult for me to keep weight on. I have a new Dr appt the end of April, it remains to be seen if he will support my prior regimin. If he does not, what are my choices?
Duane
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