Do you cycle HCG?

[Phil Goodman]

Have read through a lot of threads and there seems to be lots of different approaches to the medication. I’m leaning towards cycling on and off since it is unknown whether tolerance/resistance to effectiveness changes over time(correct me if I’m wrong). Kind of leaning towards 8 weeks on every 6 months, but that’s somewhat of a shot in the dark. Would like to hear how others have approached it and what worked/didn’t work along the way.

Also, as a bonus question, are you still running off of your stockpile acquired before the changes were made, or have you had pretty good success finding a source? My doc said the two places he used to use don’t supply it anymore and that he’s still looking. He is more than willing to write a script for something like Pregnyl but just said he doesn’t know what the price would be. I’m not really concerned about the price, especially if it’ll only be a bi-annual thing, but just wanted to see what the landscape was like at the moment.

 

[Vince]

I get all my HCG from empower pharmacy, through Defy medical. So far I have no issues receiving my HCG. I've been injecting 500 IU of HCG twice a week now, for over 6 and 1/2 years. Personally I love the stuff.

I've never cycle it.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Thanks for the input. As far as I can tell, all indications are that a person’s experience to HCG is very personal and varies significantly from one person to the next. Some can’t tolerate it at all, some feel better both when they begin AND end a cycle, and some like you can just ride it into the sunset with no issues.

And glad to hear you aren’t having any issues with supply. I’m kind of torn, as I would like to save money and support smaller companies, but at the same time I don’t want to start chipping away at other peoples’ supply when I could just start off with another source.

 

[Ardoc2]

Hey Phil,

After several years using HCG without issue, I started developing what I thought were high E2 side effects but the blood work did not seem to support that conclusion. When I stopped HCG after experiencing the sides, after a week or so I noticed having increased libido which lasted about 6-7 weeks and then it returned to 'baseline'. (Luckily, my libido has not been one of my issues so when i say 'improved' I mean better than normal. The change in protocol seems to increase libido above 'baseline' rather than the steady state causing low libido). I then restarted HCG at very low doses (90-100iu EOD) to see if i could find an appropriate dose that gave benefits but without sides. Initially i felt a small improvement in testicle size, that stalled quickly, so I continued to increase the dose. Once I started approaching the 200iu EOD (now I'm using 250iu and stopped at that dose) I started to notice an increase in libido which lasted about 10 weeks. When the libido fell back to 'baseline' I stopped out of concern about the sides returning. Again after a short period of time I noticed an increase in libido. I am on the 3rd time of restarting and the libido increase has been consistent. I started this as an experiment to see if i could do HCG at low doses without sides and found this response by accident. I have heard many reports of people having improved feeling while transitioning from one dose to another, seemingly due to the hormones being in flux?

Is it a placebo effect? I don't know but if keeps working I don't care.
I don't have a theory on this, just relaying what I have found this does for me.
I plan to continue using this protocol until it stops working or until i find credible research that 'cycling' it that way poses a health risk.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Hey Phil,

After several years using HCG without issue, I started developing what I thought were high E2 side effects but the blood work did not seem to support that conclusion. When I stopped HCG after experiencing the sides, after a week or so I noticed having increased libido which lasted about 6-7 weeks and then it returned to 'baseline'. (Luckily, my libido has not been one of my issues so when i say 'improved' I mean better than normal. The change in protocol seems to increase libido above 'baseline' rather than the steady state causing low libido). I then restarted HCG at very low doses (90-100iu EOD) to see if i could find an appropriate dose that gave benefits but without sides. Initially i felt a small improvement in testicle size, that stalled quickly, so I continued to increase the dose. Once I started approaching the 200iu EOD (now I'm using 250iu and stopped at that dose) I started to notice an increase in libido which lasted about 10 weeks. When the libido fell back to 'baseline' I stopped out of concern about the sides returning. Again after a short period of time I noticed an increase in libido. I am on the 3rd time of restarting and the libido increase has been consistent. I started this as an experiment to see if i could do HCG at low doses without sides and found this response by accident. I have heard many reports of people having improved feeling while transitioning from one dose to another, seemingly due to the hormones being in flux?

Is it a placebo effect? I don't know but if keeps working I don't care.
I don't have a theory on this, just relaying what I have found this does for me.
I plan to continue using this protocol until it stops working or until i find credible research that 'cycling' it that way poses a health risk.

Yeah, I’ve read about a fair amount of people with similar experiences, which is a big reason I decided to take the approach of cycling through 2x/year. I’d be interested to know if sides start to surface for you around the same timeframe during your 3rd attempt. How long did you wait between ending your 2nd attempt and starting your 3rd attempt? Trying to get an idea of what to aim for as my initial approach, though I’m sure I’ll probably just have to listen to my body and adjust in real time.

 

[madman]

Yeah, I’ve read about a fair amount of people with similar experiences, which is a big reason I decided to take the approach of cycling through 2x/year. I’d be interested to know if sides start to surface for you around the same timeframe during your 3rd attempt. How long did you wait between ending your 2nd attempt and starting your 3rd attempt? Trying to get an idea of what to aim for as my initial approach, though I’m sure I’ll probably just have to listen to my body and adjust in real time.

Ideally, you would want to stay on indefinitely if you are looking to prevent/minimize testicular atrophy and maintain fertility.

Cycling would be pointless if such was your goal.

*the use of exogenous testosterone ultimately leads to LH down-regulation and shutdown of endogenous production of testosterone and thus reductions in intratesticular testosterone levels that are essential for spermatogenesis

The main goal when using hCG is to restore physiological ITT levels

hCG stimulates Leydig cells leading to an increase in both intratesticular testosterone and circulating testosterone levels.

Again as I stated in a previous thread the only way to know how you will react is to give it a go and gauge how you feel over time.

Some men will do well on hCG whereas others may struggle.




Depends on the individual.....Is hCG needed?

*To preserve/maintain fertility then yes.

*To prevent/minimize testicular atrophy then yes.

*To enhance mood/libido than it is not a given as some may experience such effects whereas others may feel worse-off.

*To maintain upstream hormones and possibly prevent long-term consequences for health/well-being.....you be the judge!

 

[Phil Goodman]

The one thing concerning me about that approach is that we still don’t really if it results in resistance to HCG. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t, and maybe it depends on the person…with each person having different thresholds of tolerance. If that question was answered it would make things a lot clearer. For my personal approach I’m not worried about fertility. I’m not worried about occasional testicular atrophy, but I would like to stimulate them enough to prevent total shutdown. The other thing would be a desire to feel better due to the benefits many experience from it. And if you feel better when starting an HCG cycle AND when stopping it then it seems to be another pro for that approach. After all, for a lot of us, feeling better is a big part of our goals. Then again, some people feel great after doing it consistently for five years. But that brings us back to the first point….how bad would it suck if during year 6 it stopped working?

 

[madman]

The one thing concerning me about that approach is that we still don’t really if it results in resistance to HCG. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t, and maybe it depends on the person…with each person having different thresholds of tolerance. If that question was answered it would make things a lot clearer. For my personal approach I’m not worried about fertility. I’m not worried about occasional testicular atrophy, but I would like to stimulate them enough to prevent total shutdown. The other thing would be a desire to feel better due to the benefits many experience from it. And if you feel better when starting an HCG cycle AND when stopping it then it seems to be another pro for that approach. After all, for a lot of us, feeling better is a big part of our goals. Then again, some people feel great after doing it consistently for five years. But that brings us back to the first point….how bad would it suck if during year 6 it stopped working?

Unfortunately even when using hCG along with exogenous testosterone the HPTA is still shut down.

hCG is a direct luteinizing hormone (LH) analog and mimics LH which stimulates the Leydig cells to produce and release ITT (intratesticular testosterone).

Although.....* It is currently unknown if long-term administration of HCG can lead to side effects such as gonadotropin resistance.


*HCG’s ability to preserve spermatogenesis, and even improve semen parameters in patients who had been using exogenous testosterone, have been established (10-13). Vicari et al. looked at long term hCG treatment in 17 men with isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, observing a significant increase in testicular volume, in a time-dependent manner, and testosterone, at 15 and 24 months of treatment (13)




Maybe there is a benefit to taking short-term breaks throughout the year depending on your goals but even then I would keep it to a minimum.

For all, we know there may very well be long-term consequences from a testosterone-only protocol due to long-term suppression of ITT.

*A replacement regimen with combined hCG/rFSH mimics physiologic steroid hormone profiles better than a substitution with exogenous testosterone. The documented differences in steroid profiles on testosterone replacement in hypogonadal males with absent or severely reduced endogenous LH and FSH secretion may have long-term consequences for health and wellbeing. Specifically, body composition, bone health, glucose, and lipid metabolism, salt and water balance, cognition, mood, sleep, and sexual function could be affected. The steroidogenic differences could also be relevant for gonadotropin-suppressive treatments with long-acting testosterone preparations in males with primary hypogonadism. To what extent this hypothesis is true, should be addressed in future clinical studies.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Unfortunately even when using hCG along with exogenous testosterone the HPTA is still shut down.

hCG is a direct luteinizing hormone (LH) analog and mimics LH which stimulates the Leydig cells to produce and release ITT (intratesticular testosterone).

Although.....* It is currently unknown if long-term administration of HCG can lead to side effects such as gonadotropin resistance.


*HCG’s ability to preserve spermatogenesis, and even improve semen parameters in patients who had been using exogenous testosterone, have been established (10-13). Vicari et al. looked at long term hCG treatment in 17 men with isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, observing a significant increase in testicular volume, in a time-dependent manner, and testosterone, at 15 and 24 months of treatment (13)




Maybe there is a benefit to taking short-term breaks throughout the year depending on your goals but even then I would keep it to a minimum.

For all, we know there may very well be long-term consequences from a testosterone-only protocol due to long-term suppression of ITT.

*A replacement regimen with combined hCG/rFSH mimics physiologic steroid hormone profiles better than a substitution with exogenous testosterone. The documented differences in steroid profiles on testosterone replacement in hypogonadal males with absent or severely reduced endogenous LH and FSH secretion may have long-term consequences for health and wellbeing. Specifically, body composition, bone health, glucose, and lipid metabolism, salt and water balance, cognition, mood, sleep, and sexual function could be affected. The steroidogenic differences could also be relevant for gonadotropin-suppressive treatments with long-acting testosterone preparations in males with primary hypogonadism. To what extent this hypothesis is true, should be addressed in future clinical studies.

Yeah, I know about the shutdown of the HPTA but would like to keep the balls primed as much as possible. And as you point out, it’s probably worse over the long haul to not provide any stimulation to them. I guess the main concern is not having a definitive answer about whether resistance is developed. I’d hate to have great experiences with it only to have it stop working one day, or even worse have it stop working and then have to stop TRT with no way to get the testicles working again. If I remember correctly, you’ve posted studies before which showed effects of different dosages and 250 ius(need to go back and verify frequency of administration) brought users really close to baseline(pre TRT) ITT levels. I’m still early enough in my journey that I’ve had no impact to testicles yet. I guess tracking that and seeing how long it takes for significant atrophy will give me an idea of when/how often I’ll need to jumpstart them. Like I said, my original plan for approach(2x year) was more or less a shot in the dark. After your post(s) and suggestions though I’m thinking it may need to be more frequent. Maybe something closer to 12 weeks off then 8 weeks on. Not to get ahead of myself though, as I’m kind of just assuming that I’ll be one of the lucky ones who sees great things from HCG.

 

[M.J]

I can add here I found some success when lowering hcg from 500 to 250, however it doesn’t seems to last. An increase of libido was clearly noticeable. I am still experimenting with this though. I repeated this and got two weeks during a month still trying to see if maybe playing around between 500 and 250 or maybe keeping 500 with one week 250. I am still trying to reach a good libido as I am having a major libido issues.

 

[JimGainz]

My understanding is that there is no risk of saturating the receptors. That being said, I typically stay off for about two weeks or so when I run out before starting a new vial - every 10 weeks or so.

 

[Phil Goodman]

My understanding is that there is no risk of saturating the receptors. That being said, I typically stay off for about two weeks or so when I run out before starting a new vial - every 10 weeks or so.

How long have you been using HCG? Also, what types of differences, if any, do you notice during your two weeks off?

 

[Phil Goodman]

I can add here I found some success when lowering hcg from 500 to 250, however it doesn’t seems to last. An increase of libido was clearly noticeable. I am still experimenting with this though. I repeated this and got two weeks during a month still trying to see if maybe playing around between 500 and 250 or maybe keeping 500 with one week 250. I am still trying to reach a good libido as I am having a major libido issues.

Keep my updated on what does and doesn’t work for you. I know everyone is different, but I I figure the more data available the more we can start to see trends in what works better for different types of people.

 

[madman]

Keep my updated on what does and doesn’t work for you. I know everyone is different, but I I figure the more data available the more we can start to see trends in what works better for different types of people.

No point in fretting over such especially when it comes to libido.

Libido let alone ED is multifactorial.

Even then many can have a healthy libido on a T-only protocol.

Relying on the use of hCG let alone dose used/injection frequency as if it is going to make a significant difference when it comes to libido is a big mistake.

The only way you will know how you react is to give it a go and gauge how you feel over time.

There is no magical protocol (dose/injection frequency) when it comes to ENHANCING LIBIDO!

When it comes to enhanced mood/libido it is not a given!

Again the main purpose of adding hCG is to restore physiological ITT levels which will prevent/minimize testicular atrophy and maintain fertility which it is well known for.

The main goal when using hCG is to restore physiological ITT levels and in order to achieve such a minimum effective dose would be needed (125-500IU) and 250-500IU would seem to be the sweet spot.

Anything less will have a minimal impact on increasing ITT!

 

[Phil Goodman]

No point in fretting over such especially when it comes to libido.

Libido let alone ED is multifactorial.

Even then many can have a healthy libido on a T-only protocol.

Relying on the use of hCG let alone dose used/injection frequency as if it is going to make a significant difference when it comes to libido is a big mistake.

The only way you will know how you react is to give it a go and gauge how you feel over time.

There is no magical protocol (dose/injection frequency).

Again the main purpose of adding hCG is to restore physiological ITT levels which will prevent/minimize testicular atrophy and maintain fertility which it is well known for.

When it comes to enhanced mood/libido it is not a given!

All great points. My libido has consistently ranged from really good - ok for the most part. I’m not as concerned with the libido aspect, but would be lying if I said I don’t hope for a bump from it along with better orgasms. And I’ve had a vasectomy so not worried about the fertility aspect. My main goal is prevent atrophy and/or discomfort and keep testicular function of producing test alive while adding a bump to my levels. That’s probably guiding my approach here and a reason I’m not so concerned with using it consistently. I plan to get my levels optimized with T alone, so running some HCG at different intervals would just be icing on the cake at that point and mainly serve to make sure my balls don’t fall asleep for too long.

 

[madman]

All great points. My libido has consistently ranged from really good - ok for the most part. I’m not as concerned with the libido aspect, but would be lying if I said I don’t hope for a bump from it along with better orgasms. And I’ve had a vasectomy so not worried about the fertility aspect. My main goal is prevent atrophy and/or discomfort and keep testicular function of producing test alive while adding a bump to my levels. That’s probably guiding my approach here and a reason I’m not so concerned with using it consistently. I plan to get my levels optimized with T alone, so running some HCG at different intervals would just be icing on the cake at that point and mainly serve to make sure my balls don’t fall asleep for too long.

You just started trt and are only 3-4 weeks in (honeymoon) period!

Your hormones are still in FLUX as it will take 4-6 weeks (TE/TC) for blood levels to stabilize.

Your body is trying to adjust to the higher T levels during the transition let alone your HPG axis is shutting down.

Common for many to feel euphoric with a strong increase in libido/erections due to increased dopamine, rising T levels, lighting up AR.

Unfortunately, this is usually temporary and short-lived as the body will eventually adapt.

Many can also experience ups/downs during the transition.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt and this is the critical time period when one should truly gauge how they feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well-being.

Whether first starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency) one needs to give it at least a full 12 weeks in order to give the protocol a fighting chance before claiming if it was truly a success or failure!

 

[Phil Goodman]

You just started trt and are only 3-4 weeks in (honeymoon) period!

Your hormones are still in FLUX as it will take 4-6 weeks (TE/TC) for blood levels to stabilize.

Your body is trying to adjust to the higher T levels during the transition let alone your HPG axis is shutting down.

Common for many to feel euphoric with a strong increase in libido/erections due to increased dopamine, rising T levels, lighting up AR.

Unfortunately, this is usually temporary and short-lived as the body will eventually adapt.

Many can also experience ups/downs during the transition.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt and this is the critical time period when one should truly gauge how they feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well-being.

Whether first starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency) one needs to give it at least a full 12 weeks in order to give the protocol a fighting chance before claiming if it was truly a success or failure!

Point taken about patience and waiting, and that’s a big reason I decided to wait around 6 months or more before adding HCG to my protocol. Just wanted to get some insight into how the users around here implement it into their system and what has/hasn’t worked for them over time. For the libido thing, I wasn’t just talking about in the few weeks since starting. I meant that libido has never really been an issue for me. My decision for TRT was motivated more by energy levels, mood and zest for life, brain fog, and worse workouts requiring longer recovery.

 

[JimGainz]

How long have you been using HCG? Also, what types of differences, if any, do you notice during your two weeks off?

I have been on HCG since I started TRT about 6 years ago. When I come off, I definitely don’t feel as optimized, or sleep as well. After 3 weeks my balls start getting smaller and will frequently go up inside of me, which doesn’t feel good at all.

 

[tav2021]

Yeah, I know about the shutdown of the HPTA but would like to keep the balls primed as much as possible. And as you point out, it’s probably worse over the long haul to not provide any stimulation to them. I guess the main concern is not having a definitive answer about whether resistance is developed. I’d hate to have great experiences with it only to have it stop working one day, or even worse have it stop working and then have to stop TRT with no way to get the testicles working again. If I remember correctly, you’ve posted studies before which showed effects of different dosages and 250 ius(need to go back and verify frequency of administration) brought users really close to baseline(pre TRT) ITT levels. I’m still early enough in my journey that I’ve had no impact to testicles yet. I guess tracking that and seeing how long it takes for significant atrophy will give me an idea of when/how often I’ll need to jumpstart them. Like I said, my original plan for approach(2x year) was more or less a shot in the dark. After your post(s) and suggestions though I’m thinking it may need to be more frequent. Maybe something closer to 12 weeks off then 8 weeks on. Not to get ahead of myself though, as I’m kind of just assuming that I’ll be one of the lucky ones who sees great things from HCG.

Hi Phil,

how is your approach working so far? I'm thinking of something similar for when I start TRT, thanks!

-Tyler