Debate - Androgens: Estrogen ratio vs Overall Hormone Levels.

[JustPanicNoDisco]

I searched here, but I couldn't find any in-depth discussions about this specific issue. If anyone has any literature they would mind sharing on this topic, I would be extremely interested to read it.

A couple questions:

1) Will you suffer from having too high of hormones, generally, specifically with respect to thyroid hormones, other steroid hormones, thyroid, and potentially other neurotransmitters? For example, if you get your T extremely high but your E2 stays proportional (and you aren't using an AI), how might this affect one physiologically? (I'm aware of the potential cardiovascular risks due to increased RBC count, HCT, etc. I'm not interested in these).

2) When it comes to feeling good, how important is T:E2 ratio? I'm pretty lean and aromatize very little. My total T and free T tend to get outside of reference ranges on 140 mg/wk injections (30mg EOD) while my E2 stays well within range. I don't feel good at all at these levels, and I've been steady on them for a couple months now.

From what I understand, DHT "opposes" estrogen in some sense (not speaking in scientific terms here, but the balance seems to be important when it comes to developing gyno and other such issues).

**Is it possible to experience "low E2" side effects if you have extremely high androgen activity relative to E2, even if E2 is not crashed at all (E2 is moderate, but androgens are extremely high). I'm not asking this specifically to testosterone/DHT but other steroids as well.

I had a naturally high T/DHT:E2 ratio (which seemed to cause anxiety, some ED issues, etc.), and I stupidly blamed the E2 for being too high (yes - too much reading broscience on reddit). I decided to try adding oxandrolone and mesterolone/proviron to the mix to see how a higher androgen: estrogen ratio would affect me, and the results were pretty disastrous. I have since stopped running the steroids, yet I'm still experiencing dead libido, weak erections, flat mood, lethargy, and CONSTANT popping and cracking joints.

I have been strictly running 140 mg of test E (30mg EOD) for the last 1-2 months, and I haven't seen much improvement in my low E2 symptoms. I have noticed that the use of Cialis made the problems even worse (it's a light AI - can provide study to back it), as did scrotum test cream (hypothetically by raising DHT more and thus further antagonizing estrogen).

Thoughts, opinions, and advice all appreciated!

 

[Zibernet]

same issue with cream to the scrotum for me.

you didn't have low e2 issues before TRT?

I'm considering Trestolone for extra aromatization.

 

[Cataceous]

This subject does come up a lot. Recently here, for example. Admittedly most such threads don't delve into the details, such as research on the effects of androgen levels that are high in an absolute sense, but not relative to estrogens. There seems to be a huge variation in how guys feel under such conditions, making it hard to generalize. There is some research showing that a low T/E2 ratio is problematic. It seems reasonable to assume that a high ratio could also cause issues.

Because you're on TRT you can easily experiment to see if higher relative estradiol makes you feel better; you can use estradiol cream—adopting a low-and-slow approach with the dosing, of course. I don't know if this figure is widely applicable, but I found that 100 mcg of topical estradiol daily raised serum levels around 10 pg/mL. This also seemed to correspond to about a 10% absorption rate.

DHT does oppose estradiol in scientific terms. It acts as both an aromatase inhibitor and an antagonist of the estrogen receptor. You might be interested in this post and its references:

DHT Is Estrogen "receptor" Antagonist

I have posted studies on DHT inhibiting aromatase and increaseing estrogen conjugation and excretion by the liver. However, this study shows that DHT is actually capable of direct anti-estrogen activity by binding to and antagonizing the estrogen "receptor" similarly to progesterone and vitamin...

raypeatforum.com

 

[JustPanicNoDisco]

same issue with cream to the scrotum for me.

you didn't have low e2 issues before TRT?

I'm considering Trestolone for extra aromatization.

No, I did not.

What’s your typical TT: E2 ratio? Mine is usually in the 30-40 ball park, whereas most people here report that around 20:1 is the sweet spot. There are individual differences regarding how each individual feels at different levels, or ratios, of course. No one-size-fits-all solution, unfortunately.

 

[JustPanicNoDisco]

This subject does come up a lot. Recently here, for example. Admittedly most such threads don't delve into the details, such as research on the effects of androgen levels that are high in an absolute sense, but not relative to estrogens. There seems to be a huge variation in how guys feel under such conditions, making it hard to generalize. There is some research showing that a low T/E2 ratio is problematic. It seems reasonable to assume that a high ratio could also cause issues.

Because you're on TRT you can easily experiment to see if higher relative estradiol makes you feel better; you can use estradiol cream—adopting a low-and-slow approach with the dosing, of course. I don't know if this figure is widely applicable, but I found that 100 mcg of topical estradiol daily raised serum levels around 10 pg/mL. This also seemed to correspond to about a 10% absorption rate.

DHT does oppose estradiol in scientific terms. It acts as both an aromatase inhibitor and an antagonist of the estrogen receptor. You might be interested in this post and its references:

DHT Is Estrogen "receptor" Antagonist

I have posted studies on DHT inhibiting aromatase and increaseing estrogen conjugation and excretion by the liver. However, this study shows that DHT is actually capable of direct anti-estrogen activity by binding to and antagonizing the estrogen "receptor" similarly to progesterone and vitamin...

raypeatforum.com

Thanks for the information. I did know it antagonized E2 at receptor sites, but I didn’t know DHT acted as an AI as well.

Since crashing my estrogen a couple months ago, it seems I’m extremely sensitive to any AI or anything that lowers estrogen further. The joint popping/ pain, mood flatness, and libido issues have not improved since crashing it repeatedly. I’ve seen various estimates for how long it can take to recover, from days to almost never (nurselyfe’s story/thread is similar to what I’m experiencing).

Since I was messing with cialis and the cream — both of which crashed me further — I don’t feel like I’ve given my body a chance to lock back in. Do you think staying on my current T dose and letting my body settle for a while is prudent? I’ve heard that when people crash their estrogen and then spike it higher, that jump can cause issues with ultimate recovery.

I just don’t know whether my ratio is contributing to the symptoms or it I just haven’t fully recovered from tanking my estrogen multiple times due to the already high t:E2 ratio + DHT derivatives I was taking.

Thanks!

 

[Cataceous]

... Do you think staying on my current T dose and letting my body settle for a while is prudent? I’ve heard that when people crash their estrogen and then spike it higher, that jump can cause issues with ultimate recovery.
...

I would give it another two months anyway. If no improvements then I don't see the harm in micro-dosing some estradiol to at least confirm that lack thereof is part of the problem.

 

[Zibernet]

Thanks for the information. I did know it antagonized E2 at receptor sites, but I didn’t know DHT acted as an AI as well.

Since crashing my estrogen a couple months ago, it seems I’m extremely sensitive to any AI or anything that lowers estrogen further. The joint popping/ pain, mood flatness, and libido issues have not improved since crashing it repeatedly. I’ve seen various estimates for how long it can take to recover, from days to almost never (nurselyfe’s story/thread is similar to what I’m experiencing).

Since I was messing with cialis and the cream — both of which crashed me further — I don’t feel like I’ve given my body a chance to lock back in. Do you think staying on my current T dose and letting my body settle for a while is prudent? I’ve heard that when people crash their estrogen and then spike it higher, that jump can cause issues with ultimate recovery.

I just don’t know whether my ratio is contributing to the symptoms or it I just haven’t fully recovered from tanking my estrogen multiple times due to the already high t:E2 ratio + DHT derivatives I was taking.

Thanks!

What did you crash your e2 with?

I crashed mine with Exemestane 2 years ago trying to boost my T "naturally", and I'm still struggling with low e2 to this day.

I'm starting testosterone cream for the sole purpose of raising my e2 which I stupidly crashed trying to raise my T.

 

[JustPanicNoDisco]

@Zibernet

I crashed mine with DHT derivatives (oxandrolone and Mesterolone, specifically). This can apparently happen if you already have fairly low T and then you add these AAS substances. Mesterolone acts as an AI, and any androgenic / DHT derivative apparently antagonizes estrogen at the receptor level.

Did you crash yours with an AI? What symptoms are you dealing with?

 

[JustPanicNoDisco]

I would give it another two months anyway. If no improvements then I don't see the harm in micro-dosing some estradiol to at least confirm that lack thereof is part of the problem.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Zibernet]

@Zibernet

I crashed mine with DHT derivatives (oxandrolone and Mesterolone, specifically). This can apparently happen if you already have fairly low T and then you add these AAS substances. Mesterolone acts as an AI, and any androgenic / DHT derivative apparently antagonizes estrogen at the receptor level.

Did you crash yours with an AI? What symptoms are you dealing with?

It's litterally written above: with Exemestane, which is the active compound of the brand name Aromasin.

Low energy, lethargy, cracky joints.