Total T/Free T and E2 Ratio Out of Balance

[jwpinva]

Hey guys, first time posting here, but I've been a lurker for quite some time.

48 yo
5'10"
195#
Daily weight and resistance training

Here's my protocol:

160mg TestCyp, injected twice weekly 0.4mg per dose.
1000 IU's of HCG , injected twice weekly at 500IU's per dose. Kids aren't really the goal at my age; it's more about the aesthetics.
No AI at time time.

After 10 weeks on this protocol, my labs came back thus:
Total T = 971 ng/dL
Free T = 34.18 ng/dL
E2 (sensitive) = 69.8 pg/dL (!!!!)

I'm not having any gyno or moodiness, but libido is just meh, and erection quality and orgasm quality are iffy at best. Obviously, I suspect the high E2 number is the culprit because the ratio is clearly WAY off...

My doc crashed my E2 on my initial dose of AI (which was 1mg, twice a week), and I'll never forget how miserable that was, so I'm avoiding AI's like the plague.

But now it seems the pendulum has swung the other direction. I really want to get dialed without an AI, having the benefits of optimized T, without the high E2 symptoms. So, I'm open to suggestions. I've considered dialing back one or both the T or the HCG, but I'd like input from peers with a broad level of experience.

Screen shot of labs attached for reference.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[swoops36]

You could dial back on the HCG, like you said, or start with a very small dose of anastrozole. Like .25mg split into two, after injections. Wait a few weeks and do labs.

 

[fifty]

Why do you think E2 is way high? See this:

How to Predict Estradiol and DHT at Different Testosterone Doses

I was able to come up with a table using the predictive model equation derived from data in this study: The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men Summary This video discusses a research paper...

www.excelmale.com

 

[jwpinva]

You could dial back on the HCG, like you said, or start with a very small dose of anastrozole. Like .25mg split into two, after injections. Wait a few weeks and do labs.

Thanks for the reply. Why dial back the HCG instead of reducing TestCyp? I was assuming the opposite: reducing the TestCyp and keeping the HCG the same.

As for doing a 0.25mg dose of AI, how the heck do I cut that tiny pill into 1/4's?

 

[jwpinva]

Why do you think E2 is way high? See this:

How to Predict Estradiol and DHT at Different Testosterone Doses

I was able to come up with a table using the predictive model equation derived from data in this study: The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men Summary This video discusses a research paper...

www.excelmale.com

Thanks for the link to the video. Sometimes there's so much noise on the site that it's tough to find the good data.

From the equation in the video and based on my current labs and total T of 971, my E2 should be around 55.

138.3 x 971 = 134,289.3
1470.1 + 971 = 2441.1
134,289.3 / 2441.1 = 55.01

So, based on the formula Nelson suggests, my E2 of 69.8 is still 14.8 pg/dL higher than it should be, right? I recognize that our bodies aren't exactly machines, but it still seems like my ratio is still out of whack. Coupled with my erection and libido symptoms, I still feel like I need to do some tuning.

Thanks again for pointing me to the video

 

[Deleted member 16042]

As for doing a 0.25mg dose of AI, how the heck do I cut that tiny pill into 1/4's?

Crush 1mg tablet thoroughly into powder. Mix with 10ml of vodka. Shake solution vigorously each time you dose. For 0.25mg, draw 2.5ml into syringe without needle and take orally.

I used to take doses as small as 0.06mg which is 0.6ml of this solution concentration.

BTW, I'd personally opt to lower T dose and bring free T into mid 20's to try to drop E2 rather than add AI. What you choose is of course up to you and your doc.

 

[jwpinva]

Thanks for the input. Lowering T will likely be my suggestion to my doc as well.

As for mixing the an AI with vodka...that’s definitely creative.

 

[MarcoFL]

FWIW I am 57, 5ft10 and 15% body fat. I have tried many times not to take and AI. for some reason once I get over 30 E2 things just do not work especially sex. erection and ability to reach orgasm greatly diminished. I take enough anastrozole to keep me around 30. Talk to your doc and see what you can learn.

 

[jwpinva]

FWIW I am 57, 5ft10 and 15% body fat. I have tried many times not to take and AI. for some reason once I get over 30 E2 things just do not work especially sex. erection and ability to reach orgasm greatly diminished. I take enough anastrozole to keep me around 30. Talk to your doc and see what you can learn.

Thanks for the reply. When I first started on TRT, using an AI made me so miserable (ZERO libido, ZERO erections, super depressed, no energy) that I’m super gun shy about them now. But I’m slowly starting to think microdosing might be an option.

 

[MarcoFL]

Thanks for the reply. When I first started on TRT, using an AI made me so miserable (ZERO libido, ZERO erections, super depressed, no energy) that I’m super gun shy about them now. But I’m slowly starting to think microdosing might be an option.

ask your doc but for me taking .5mg 3X per week keeps me at 30 E2. Maybe ask doc about starting at .25 like Blackhawk mentioned. Good luck and keep asking questions.

 

[S1W]

You might consider completely dropping the HCG. It never seemed to do much for me, other than drive up E2.

And lowering T dose will also drop E2 of course. So many guys come on here and say how much better they feel on lower doses, and that they wish they had done it sooner. But for many of us, it's a mental hurdle to follow through with it lol.

 

[swoops36]

Thanks for the reply. Why dial back the HCG instead of reducing TestCyp? I was assuming the opposite: reducing the TestCyp and keeping the HCG the same.

As for doing a 0.25mg dose of AI, how the heck do I cut that tiny pill into 1/4's?

In my experience the T Cyp is what does the heavy lifting. The HCG is a helper, if you will. So if I was going to dial one back, it wouldn’t be the one doing most of the work for me. Also, if e2 is an issue, the HCG is probably contributing more to that increase than the test is.

im sure others have had good experiences lowering T and raising HCG, maybe? You could try both and see which feels better

 

[swoops36]

In my experience the T Cyp is what does the heavy lifting. The HCG is a helper, if you will. So if I was going to dial one back, it wouldn’t be the one doing most of the work for me. Also, if e2 is an issue, the HCG is probably contributing more to that increase than the test is.

im sure others have had good experiences lowering T and raising HCG, maybe? You could try both and see which feels better

oh, and I use a pill cutter to cut my AI into 1/4 pieces, pretty easy. I also requested compounded anastrozole at .25mg per cap

 

[Tman]

ask your doc but for me taking .5mg 3X per week keeps me at 30 E2. Maybe ask doc about starting at .25 like Blackhawk mentioned. Good luck and keep asking questions.

Exsmple microdosing...I only take .05 ai, a day