Low SHBG - Low libido

[Kaime]

Ok, so another guy with low SHBG (11 nmol/l) on TRT.

Got a few questions, because it's very confusing and couldn't find any proper and scientific informations over the internet.

1. If SHBG binds andro and estrogens, leaving more free and bioavailable hormones, why low level of globulins is often associated with smaller benefits from TRT?

2. Less SHBG is highly recommended during steroids cycles, which is often achieved by adding DHT derivatives like Proviron/Winstrol to the stack. Bigger the andro/estro ratio, the better, so why it doesn't work that way on TRT?

3. Libido. After starting TRT my test levels raised significally, but noticed no improvement in my sex life. SHBG binds to DHT the most, then test/estro. Even if somehow we got more estrogens than androgens, by aromatase inhibiton, we should notice the increase in our libido right? Played with all variations of my E2, from super low, to super high using exemestane. There was no improvement at all, why is that?

4. Was recommended to try Proviron. Is that a good idea? Since it will drop my SHBG Values to a single digit? Why people on DHT like drugs gets higher libido, while they lower SHBg even more?

I am getting frustrated. My low SHBG number is genetic. I am not diabetic, nor pre-diabetic with insulin resistance. My thyroid is working perfectly. My current TRT dose is 50mg cypionate E3D with 500 UI HCG also E3D. Was experimating with various HCG dosages, with no changes whatsoever. My other hormones are great, although I was also playing with prolactin, which only made me rest longer after ejaculation, when it was too high and noticed no improvment while it was on the lower levels. Progesterone is in the middle values. Used dopamine agonists as well - no changes.

I am out of options here. I could take PDE5 inhibitors, but lately I've noticed they didn't help that much, since I lack the sexual desire, which is still needed for them to work.

Any advice guys?

Thank you.

 

[johndoesmith]

You keep saying that other hormones are "great", maybe they aren't? Hence your struggle with hormones? It's impossible for us to comment on them if you don't provide actual numbers, so I will address this from a theoretical perspective.

First, the misconception that SHBG simply binds and makes hormones useless is annoying as hell, because it is not true. SHBG is a carrier protein, it shuttles hormones that are hydrophobic chemicals, thus have a hard time being transported by the water based serum. So SHBG helps with this, testosterone can unbind from SHBG. Look into the free hormone hypothesis vs the free hormone transport hypothesis for more information.

The problem with low SHBG, is that hormones are metabolized too quickly, possibly before they are able to do anything, as SHBG also protects hormones from metabolization.

Steroid users aren't known for their great knowledge on hormones, they often use broscience to support what worked for them, when in reality, it had nothing to do with their success. If you put supraphysiological amounts of androgens, especially ones stronger than testosterone, it really doesn't matter what your SHBG is, you'll grow.

TRT is about maintaining physiological levels of hormones in a personal range that works best for you, so the goal is much different than AAS. AAS is just about getting as much as possible, think of an F1 car vs a luxury car. In real life, the luxury car is what I'd want to drive.

Regarding libido(again, assuming your hormones are "great") then you're not considering the possibility(and probability) of a psychological component to your symptoms. It is much more likely(Occam's Razor agrees) that your issue is due to a psychological cause as opposed to a hormonal cause.

 

[Vince Carter]

to add with CoastWatcher most of us low SHBG, on TRT, do our best on daily Cyp injections if not EOD, E3.5D is not going to be what I would advise, think of it this way, the lower your SHBG the faster your body clears the T, that's the simple version. E3.5D just doesn't work well at all for us because you typically get close to being in a low T state, again, before you reach your next injection, think of it as a roller coaster of up/down over those days. So when you move to EOD or even daily shots your highs and lows are a lot less pronounced and you get a smoother ride.

 

[Kaime]

I ran test prop ED and honestly didn't feel any difference. I am currenlty cruising at ~15, 11, 7, 15 , 11, 7 ng/dl with my E3D cypio dosage.

By saying my hormones are great I meant they are mostly in the middle range. Those that might have an effect on libido like E2/PRL were lowered/raised and tested on different levels.

Still I don't know why DHT derivatives used to increase libido works, when they also lower SHBG? I know they change the andro to estrogen ratio, but we can do the same thing by killing our aromatase enzyme and lower the E2 and we don't feel even slightly the same, even though with low SHBG we got a lot of free DHT. I also can't agree on the fact that all steroid user's and competitors know nothing about hormones. Most of them do, but the knowledge of those on a higher level and trainers is a different story, thus the SHBG lowering thing isn't a broscience.

If they get more benefits with lower SHBG, why we're still feeling like shit? I just can't comprehend that.

About my case, is not psychological. My libido steadily declined over the years along with testosterone levels, but without any appearence of mood disorders. Besides I've already said I experimented with dopamine agonists (selegiline, l-dopa) used an SSRI and there was a time I was into neurotransmitters and cognitive enhancment. The only thing that helped so far was melanotan II, but I am not a fan of peptides, since I have problems with getting the legit stuff in my country and they are really expensive.

P.S I always knew SHBG bound hormones can be "released", but it is a very uncommon unlike albumin ones, which can easily bind to the receptors.

 

[Ardoc]

I had also kept hearing that SHBG-bound T was permanently bound and unusable. I was having a hard time understanding why, if that is the case, that we would even care about Total T instead of just Free T. This still makes me wonder why someone with low SHBG wouldn't still benefit from the higher Free T that seems to accompany it?
I have been reading a fair bit about this lately and have a theoretical question (I am speaking over-my-head here so let me know if I am understanding this wrong).... the effects of SHBG are portrayed as a situation where T is "metabolized" too quickly. Supposedly Cytochrome P450 3A4 (Cyp3A4) is largely responsible for clearing some drugs and some hormones from our systems including Testosterone. Grapefruit inhibits Cyp3A4 (which is why it affects the metabolism of some drugs to a degree that prevents people on certain drugs from eating grapefruit).
Any thoughts on whether eating grapefruit may be beneficial to people with low SHBG, by slowing the "metabolism" of testosterone?

 

[johndoesmith]

I ran test prop ED and honestly didn't feel any difference. I am currenlty cruising at ~15, 11, 7, 15 , 11, 7 ng/dl with my E3D cypio dosage.

By saying my hormones are great I meant they are mostly in the middle range. Those that might have an effect on libido like E2/PRL were lowered/raised and tested on different levels.

Still I don't know why DHT derivatives used to increase libido works, when they also lower SHBG? I know they change the andro to estrogen ratio, but we can do the same thing by killing our aromatase enzyme and lower the E2 and we don't feel even slightly the same, even though with low SHBG we got a lot of free DHT. I also can't agree on the fact that all steroid user's and competitors know nothing about hormones. Most of them do, but the knowledge of those on a higher level and trainers is a different story, thus the SHBG lowering thing isn't a broscience.

If they get more benefits with lower SHBG, why we're still feeling like shit? I just can't comprehend that.

About my case, is not psychological. My libido steadily declined over the years along with testosterone levels, but without any appearence of mood disorders. Besides I've already said I experimented with dopamine agonists (selegiline, l-dopa) used an SSRI and there was a time I was into neurotransmitters and cognitive enhancment. The only thing that helped so far was melanotan II, but I am not a fan of peptides, since I have problems with getting the legit stuff in my country and they are really expensive.

P.S I always knew SHBG bound hormones can be "released", but it is a very uncommon unlike albumin ones, which can easily bind to the receptors.

I've answered your questions, but it seems as if you didn't read them, or didn't like the answers.

I'd love to see the source that suggests SHBG bound hormones being released is "very uncommon".

You've concluded your case is not psychological, yet you've ruled out all other possible physical causes, how did you conclude it's not psychological?

You mention these "mid range" levels, yet do not post them, I am not quite sure what it is you want, advice doesn't seem to be it. Seems more like whining? Sympathy?

You say low SHBG is your problem, but then go on to say how we should all want to lower our SHBG, and dispute everything I'm saying that proves SHBG is important. How is that?

 

[eli]

I'm the same, low shbg, actually 11 lol. Test didn't work for me. ED, EOD, E3D, tried it all but nothing worked. I tried trestolone, it worked much better than test but I was worried about sperm production.

Now I'm going completely off, my 3rd day on nolva and clomid, ran big hcg doses the past 3 - 4 weeks. I'm late 20s, and didn't have testosterone problems before, just started using steroids at a young age (androgen induced hypo).

 

[Kaime]

@johndoesmith with all due respect you didn't answer my questions. All you said was SHBG is important as a protein carrier and it protects hormones from metabolization too quickly. (which we already knew) And for some reason you're trying to convience me my problem is psychological, while it's not. If you want to continue this way please don't post in this thread anymore. Thank you.

 

[johndoesmith]

@johndoesmith with all due respect you didn't answer my questions. All you said was SHBG is important as a protein carrier and it protects hormones from metabolization too quickly. (which we already knew) And for some reason you're trying to convience me my problem is psychological, while it's not. If you want to continue this way please don't post in this thread anymore. Thank you.

I have answered your questions. You asked why low SHBG is associated with issues, and why lower SHBG doesn't increase libido.

You've seemingly ruled out all other causes of low libido, so the only thing left is psychological causes. I'm not sure what you're looking for, but it seems as if you want an answer that doesn't exist.

You're also not providing much information for anyone to work with.

 

[Kaime]

No, you didn't answer why lowering SHBG for bodybuilders brings more benefits? Why proviron and simillar DHT derrivatives increase libido, while lowering SHBG as well? Why changing andro to estro ratio doesn't give us anything? If I should try proviron etc.

And my questions are general, I am not really trying to get answers for me personally, because as you can see there's plenty of people with simillar isuess and they even posted here.

Another question, why I didn't feel any difference while I was on T propionate ED, even with low SHBG there should be any change right? Was cruising around 18-20 ng/dl everyday. How low SHBG affected my hormones with this protocol?

 

[johndoesmith]

No, you didn't answer why lowering SHBG for bodybuilders brings more benefits? Why proviron and simillar DHT derrivatives increase libido, while lowering SHBG as well? Why changing andro to estro ratio doesn't give us anything? If I should try proviron etc.

And my questions are general, I am not really trying to get answers for me personally, because as you can see there's plenty of people with simillar isuess and they even posted here.

Another question, why I didn't feel any difference while I was on T propionate ED, even with low SHBG there should be any change right? Was cruising around 18-20 ng/dl everyday. How low SHBG affected my hormones with this protocol?

I can't answer why lowering SHBG gives more benefits to bodybuilders, because that isn't necessarily true. I don't know of any scientific evidence supporting that notion, so attempting to answer an unproven observation, is an exercise in futility.

It is also hard to separate lower SHBG causing more benefits, vs the compound that lowers SHBG causing more benefits, with the reduction in SHBG simply as a side effect.

Proviron is a DHT analoge, so it is a potent androgen, which would explain why it can increase libido.

I don't know what you mean by "changing andro to estro ratio doesn't give us anything". Can you be more specific? Change it which way? Give you what? How long was it changed? What was it and what is it at now?


As to why you didn't feel better on prop, because the body doesn't know what an ester is, testosterone is testosterone, whether it is from prop or cyp, simply makes no difference at the end of the day assuming serum levels of androgens are the same.

Low SHBG will prevent testosterone from getting to where it needs to be, as it is a carrier protein, so that should answer your question. I have a vial of testosterone stored in a closet, but if it is not injected into my body, it will do me no good as it is not where it needs to be.

 

[Kaime]

Thank you.

When we use AI for example and kill aromatase, reducing estradiol levels, we change andro/estro ratio right?
Since with low SHBG, there is a much more free E2 flying around in our body, by killing it and leaving more available androgens we should feel them, am I correct? People with low SHBG don't and I don't know why. At least in terms of libido.

Same thing with Proviron I assume. We take provi, which is DHT analog as you said and the andro/estro ratio is disturbed, leaving more androgens, thus higher libido for instance.

SHBG has the biggest binding effect on DHT, with low SHBG we should have much more DHT than normal, which should influence the ratio even more, but it somehow don't.

Could you explain why? And if I make any sense. English isn't my native tongue.

 

[Vince Carter]

There's really not much new discussion on Low SHBG to be had, if you'd spend time on google or searching this forum low SHBG has been beat to death, and doing your own leg work instead of arguing with people, with the direct personal experience to know better than you, you'd be better off.

 

[Kaime]

I am not arguing, but asking. Did you see me throwing accusations here that johndoesmith isn't right? (well in terms on bodybuilders I think he is )

If I am not allowed to question here, then ok, have a wonderful day.

 

[johndoesmith]

Thank you.

When we use AI for example and kill aromatase, reducing estradiol levels, we change andro/estro ratio right?
Since with low SHBG, there is a much more free E2 flying around in our body, by killing it and leaving more available androgens we should feel them, am I correct? People with low SHBG don't and I don't know why. At least in terms of libido.

Same thing with Proviron I assume. We take provi, which is DHT analog as you said and the andro/estro ratio is disturbed, leaving more androgens, thus higher libido for instance.

SHBG has the biggest binding effect on DHT, with low SHBG we should have much more DHT than normal, which should influence the ratio even more, but it somehow don't.

Could you explain why? And if I make any sense. English isn't my native tongue.

See one of my threads where I discuss with Dr. Saya about the amount of testosterone consumed by aromatase. It's a fraction of a percent so not really significant.

I've explained multiple times now that SHBG is a carrier protein, you accept that, but then ask the same question. You're not going to get a different answer.

Changing T/E2 ratio makes a difference, but if libido is your goal, killing aromatase is a bad idea.

E2 is quintessential for libido in men. Period. Studies have shown E2 even in the absence of androgens can promote libido.

 

[johndoesmith]

I am not arguing, but asking. Did you see me throwing accusations here that johndoesmith isn't right? (well in terms on bodybuilders I think he is )

If I am not allowed to question here, then ok, have a wonderful day.

You're not questioning, you're arguing, even directly after stating that you're not arguing, you're arguing yet offer zero evidence of your claims.

 

[hardrlz]

This problem should be further officially researched .. this is like a genetic disease or something ... there are many people with the same problems (low shbg, low energy , libido) to whom TRT or even other medicine has no effect at all ..with common symptoms that cant find a cure and doctors cant help them at all (at least from my observations). Me personally i have been tested for everything related with low SHBG, for all types of hormonal imbalances (thyroid, adrenal etc.) , blood tests, even for sleep apnea. Everything except the testosterone is normal, it feels like i am doomed for life.. i am 24 only and cant find any cure at all, have spent so much money on supplements, peptides, sarms, you name it , and all type of medicine as well .. NOTHING. Furthermore i live in a shitty country where doctors have no idea what they are doing, but it seems in the USA as well this condition is not identified as something serious so far, as far as i know.

 

[ERO]

This problem should be further officially researched .. this is like a genetic disease or something ... there are many people with the same problems (low shbg, low energy , libido) to whom TRT or even other medicine has no effect at all ..with common symptoms that cant find a cure and doctors cant help them at all (at least from my observations). Me personally i have been tested for everything related with low SHBG, for all types of hormonal imbalances (thyroid, adrenal etc.) , blood tests, even for sleep apnea. Everything except the testosterone is normal, it feels like i am doomed for life.. i am 24 only and cant find any cure at all, have spent so much money on supplements, peptides, sarms, you name it , and all type of medicine as well .. NOTHING. Furthermore i live in a shitty country where doctors have no idea what they are doing, but it seems in the USA as well this condition is not identified as something serious so far, as far as i know.

I agree, as I feel the same as you although I am older at 52. Sadly, unless there is big $$$ to be made, Big Pharma is not going to spend a dime on research for this.

Just to be sure you have tried all options, I would recommend doing small daily T injections and using supplemental T gel (not cream, gel as it is often better absorbed) applied directly to the scrotum to boost DHT and hopefully libido. Give this 5-6 weeks before you judge it as working or not.

 

[hardrlz]

Maybe i will try T gel, although if propionate ed didnt work for me at all i doubt the gel will. Also i want to try trestolone injections, the oral MENT also didnt work (maybe it was bunk i am not sure).

 

[madman]

This problem should be further officially researched .. this is like a genetic disease or something ... there are many people with the same problems (low shbg, low energy , libido) to whom TRT or even other medicine has no effect at all ..with common symptoms that cant find a cure and doctors cant help them at all (at least from my observations). Me personally i have been tested for everything related with low SHBG, for all types of hormonal imbalances (thyroid, adrenal etc.) , blood tests, even for sleep apnea. Everything except the testosterone is normal, it feels like i am doomed for life.. i am 24 only and cant find any cure at all, have spent so much money on supplements, peptides, sarms, you name it , and all type of medicine as well .. NOTHING. Furthermore i live in a shitty country where doctors have no idea what they are doing, but it seems in the USA as well this condition is not identified as something serious so far, as far as i know.

If you have any type of neurotransmitter imbalance dopamine/serotonin, one will struggle with having a healthy libido even when on trt.