Is there any truth to the idea that test prop can be used daily at replacement amounts while avoiding natural shutdown despite not including HCG? I've seen it mentioned as a possibility here and there, but I've never seen anyone report it to be true while backing it up with labs.
Daily Test Prop and the need for HCG
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I don't think there is any truth to it. Any exogenous source of Testosterone and/or Estradiol will exert negative feedback on the hypothalamus/pituitary. Test Prop is a shorter chain ester, so it is absorbed somewhat more quickly from the oil depot in the muscle/fat (though still over 24 hr or so, so not "quick acting" by pharma standards). However, it still exerts negative feedback and shuts down the HPG axis.
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
It depends on the dosage and what you mean by "avoid shutdown".
If you administer scrotal cream once daily at 100 mg, most men will have an LH greater than 1 mIU/mL at trough, despite peaking at greater than 1,000 ng/dL total testosterone when measured later that day. Suppression is occurring here, but not complete shutdown. The pharmacokinetics of testosterone propionate are not substantially different from scrotal cream, so with some adjustment to dosage, you should be able to replicate that result: a suppressed, but not completely shut down HPT axis, evidenced by a detectable low-normal range LH level at trough.
If by "avoid shutdown" you mean you will maintain natural testosterone production and spermatogenesis near baseline levels, no, you will not do that without hCG.
Always when thinking about this topic, understand as a foundation that suppression / shutdown is not a binary concept. It exists along a wide spectrum, from 0% suppression, to 100% suppression, and every possible increment in between.
Thank you for the clarification. I'm still new to this area of knowledge and that was helpful.
I guess a followup would be whether most people who seek the benefits of non-shutdown (DHEA, pregnenolone, fuller testes, etc) find that they reach a partial enough level of suppression using a reasonable daily dose of prop, minus the hCG. Also, if someone were to include hCG, would less be needed compared to when longer esters are used?
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
I think in many cases the answer is yes. IIRC Jerajera documented a higher level of pregnenolone while on prop than enanthate. For the many of us that feel better on daily prop than on longer esters, we attribute that at least in part to less suppression. Of course, few people have done sufficient labwork to prove that less suppression is occurring, as you rightly noted above, so take it with a grain of salt.
I've also heard many anecdotes around less hCG being required with prop, in support of the less suppressive concept.
Don't forget dose as a major factor here. If you go high enough with prop, your trough won't drop low enough for any HPTA activity to occur, and you will be just as completely shutdown as with any other ester. This unique possibility for avoiding complete shutdown only exists at reasonable doses of prop.
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
A lot of the answer here depends on what your priorities are. Are you trying to maintain fertility? If so I expect you would want HCG in the mix. Are you trying to improve athleticism? Low dose Oxandrolone might be a better option. Is mood the priority? Test suspension might do what you need. Are you wanting to maintain the option to come off of T? Then any of the above might be better.
The goal would be to use it at replacement levels as general TRT, specifically to relieve a lack of stress resilience and other low-test age-related symptoms. Fertility is low on the list.
I'm curious about the test suspension. Wouldn't the half-life be so short as to make it unusable for most purposes?
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
It sounds like starting with Enclomiphene or Clomid at a low dose (e.g. `12mg every other day, for example) might be a good first step since your natural production would, if anything, increase. Lithium Orotate or Acetate is also know to help with stress.
Regarding test suspension, you would have to experiment. Note that testosterone is also a signaling molecule so some of its effects may last well beyond when the actual test is out of your system. In your case, a dose in the morning might serve your purposes for the day, or perhaps not, but it should be less suppressive than Prop. @Cataceous has been doing some experiment with very short-acting forms, but they may be a bit extreme for most people, but you can see his threads on the topic.
madman
Super Moderator
Daily TP is still going to have a strong suppressive effect on the HPG-axis!
Even when using exogenous T + hCG there will still be a strong suppression.
The addition of an LH mimetic (hCG) will allow one to maintain some degree of intra-testicular testosterone (ITT) which will minimize/prevent testicular atrophy and maintain fertility.
@madman Interesting, it's hard to argue with the data. It looks like significant suppression is guaranteed with all but a few modalities, and most people don't find them satisfying for resolving symptoms.
So in your opinion, what's an ideal way to go about TRT in terms of ester, dose timing, etc? I'm just curious how someone like you would go about it.
So in your opinion, what's an ideal way to go about TRT in terms of ester, dose timing, etc? I'm just curious how someone like you would go about it.
To my knowledge, nasal T gel (like Natesto) is the only T form that causes minimal suppression because it is so fast acting.
I have experimented with micro dosing both Prop and T no ester (both oil and water suspension) and can confirm that both shut down HPTA. However, natural production does bounce back faster if you stop.
I have experimented with micro dosing both Prop and T no ester (both oil and water suspension) and can confirm that both shut down HPTA. However, natural production does bounce back faster if you stop.
madman
Super Moderator
The most commonly prescribed esters are the medium-acting TE/TC.
The PKs are basically interchangeable.
TE is more popular than TC but even then you need to figure things out through trial and error.
Most men on TTh are injecting 100-200 mg T/week whether once weekly or split into more frequent injections (twice-weekly, M/W/F, EOD or daily).
The majority of men can easily achieve a healthy/high trough FT injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.
Yes there will always be those outliers who may need the higher-end dose 200 mg T/week but its far from common as in very rare.
Such dose would have the majority of men easily overmedicated.
There are also some men who can achieve stellar levels injecting <100 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.
The standard starting dose by those truly in the know is 100 mg T/week or 50 mg T twice-weekly.
The most common injection frequency is once or twice-weekly with twice-weekly taking the cake.
Definitely would not jump into injecting EOD or daily off the hop.
The best piece of advice is to always start low and go slow on a T-only protocol so you can see how your body reacts to testosterone and where said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) will have your trough TT and more importantly FT, estradiol and critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.
There will always be time to increase the dose of T or throw in hCG if need be.
Much easier to tease out any issues that may arise when starting on a T only protocol.
Trust me when I tell you it is much easier going up than having to come down.
Unfortunately many men are overmedicated on T off the hop let alone on therapy!
Blood work will be done 6 weeks in once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and steady-state is achieved.
We always want to test at the true trough (lowest point) before your next injection to make sure your levels are not too low or too high which can lead to lack of symptom improvement or sides.
All that should really matter here is the dose one needs to achieve a healthy trough FT which will result in relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being.
Yes symptom relief is what truly matters but when it comes to what FT level is needed one needs to keep in mind the overall goal would be to use the least amount in order to feel well while at the same time minimizing sides and keep blood markers healthy long-term.
Always need to be mindful of your injection frequency/where trough FT sits.
FT <5 ng/dL would be considerd low.
FT 5-9 ng/dL would be considered the grey zone where some men may experience symptoms of low-T.
FT 10-15 ng/dL would be healthy.
FT 20-25 ng/dL would be high-end/high.
The majority of men will do well with a trough FT 15-25 ng/dL depending on the injection frequency.
Also need to keep in mind that there is a big difference between one running a high-end/high trough FT 20-25 ng/dL injecting daily vs twice-weekly vs once weekly.
Also going to be a big difference in peak--->trough on said protocol.
Many tend to overlook this and gun for a high-end/high trough FT only to end up struggling with sides especilly in the long run.
Overall patience is key.
Have realistic expectations especially when it comes to libido and erectile function!
Abraham Morgentaler
* what's important to understand though is that the concept of testosterone therapy in theory is designed to replicate youthful levels of testosterone to help people who are deficient in this hormone, the goal isn't to make them into supermen and the real question is why do people want to go above normal if at all, much of the concept of treating up lets say a 1000 let's say our normal upper limit, in the anti-aging community or age management community there are some people who believe the there's an optimal level of testosterone that may be 1200 or 1500 or even I've heard 1800 and the basis for that is WEAK!
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