Daily Test Prop and the need for HCG

[Observer]

Is there any truth to the idea that test prop can be used daily at replacement amounts while avoiding natural shutdown despite not including HCG? I've seen it mentioned as a possibility here and there, but I've never seen anyone report it to be true while backing it up with labs.

 

[radman]

I don't think there is any truth to it. Any exogenous source of Testosterone and/or Estradiol will exert negative feedback on the hypothalamus/pituitary. Test Prop is a shorter chain ester, so it is absorbed somewhat more quickly from the oil depot in the muscle/fat (though still over 24 hr or so, so not "quick acting" by pharma standards). However, it still exerts negative feedback and shuts down the HPG axis.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Is there any truth to the idea that test prop can be used daily at replacement amounts while avoiding natural shutdown despite not including HCG? I've seen it mentioned as a possibility here and there, but I've never seen anyone report it to be true while backing it up with labs.

It depends on the dosage and what you mean by "avoid shutdown".

If you administer scrotal cream once daily at 100 mg, most men will have an LH greater than 1 mIU/mL at trough, despite peaking at greater than 1,000 ng/dL total testosterone when measured later that day. Suppression is occurring here, but not complete shutdown. The pharmacokinetics of testosterone propionate are not substantially different from scrotal cream, so with some adjustment to dosage, you should be able to replicate that result: a suppressed, but not completely shut down HPT axis, evidenced by a detectable low-normal range LH level at trough.

If by "avoid shutdown" you mean you will maintain natural testosterone production and spermatogenesis near baseline levels, no, you will not do that without hCG.

Always when thinking about this topic, understand as a foundation that suppression / shutdown is not a binary concept. It exists along a wide spectrum, from 0% suppression, to 100% suppression, and every possible increment in between.

 

[Observer]

It depends on the dosage and what you mean by "avoid shutdown".

If you administer scrotal cream once daily at 100 mg, most men will have an LH greater than 1 mIU/mL at trough, despite peaking at greater than 1,000 ng/dL total testosterone when measured later that day. Suppression is occurring here, but not complete shutdown. The pharmacokinetics of testosterone propionate are not substantially different from scrotal cream, so with some adjustment to dosage, you should be able to replicate that result: a suppressed, but not completely shut down HPT axis, evidenced by a detectable low-normal range LH level at trough.

If by "avoid shutdown" you mean you will maintain natural testosterone production and spermatogenesis near baseline levels, no, you will not do that without hCG.

Always when thinking about this topic, understand as a foundation that suppression / shutdown is not a binary concept. It exists along a wide spectrum, from 0% suppression, to 100% suppression, and every possible increment in between.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm still new to this area of knowledge and that was helpful.

I guess a followup would be whether most people who seek the benefits of non-shutdown (DHEA, pregnenolone, fuller testes, etc) find that they reach a partial enough level of suppression using a reasonable daily dose of prop, minus the hCG. Also, if someone were to include hCG, would less be needed compared to when longer esters are used?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I guess a followup would be whether most people who seek the benefits of non-shutdown (DHEA, pregnenolone, fuller testes, etc) find that they reach a partial enough level of suppression using a reasonable daily dose of prop, minus the hCG.

I think in many cases the answer is yes. IIRC Jerajera documented a higher level of pregnenolone while on prop than enanthate. For the many of us that feel better on daily prop than on longer esters, we attribute that at least in part to less suppression. Of course, few people have done sufficient labwork to prove that less suppression is occurring, as you rightly noted above, so take it with a grain of salt.

I've also heard many anecdotes around less hCG being required with prop, in support of the less suppressive concept.

Don't forget dose as a major factor here. If you go high enough with prop, your trough won't drop low enough for any HPTA activity to occur, and you will be just as completely shutdown as with any other ester. This unique possibility for avoiding complete shutdown only exists at reasonable doses of prop.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Is there any truth to the idea that test prop can be used daily at replacement amounts while avoiding natural shutdown despite not including HCG? I've seen it mentioned as a possibility here and there, but I've never seen anyone report it to be true while backing it up with labs.

A lot of the answer here depends on what your priorities are. Are you trying to maintain fertility? If so I expect you would want HCG in the mix. Are you trying to improve athleticism? Low dose Oxandrolone might be a better option. Is mood the priority? Test suspension might do what you need. Are you wanting to maintain the option to come off of T? Then any of the above might be better.

 

[Observer]

A lot of the answer here depends on what your priorities are. Are you trying to maintain fertility? If so I expect you would want HCG in the mix. Are you trying to improve athleticism? Low dose Oxandrolone might be a better option. Is mood the priority? Test suspension might do what you need. Are you wanting to maintain the option to come off of T? Then any of the above might be better.

The goal would be to use it at replacement levels as general TRT, specifically to relieve a lack of stress resilience and other low-test age-related symptoms. Fertility is low on the list.

I'm curious about the test suspension. Wouldn't the half-life be so short as to make it unusable for most purposes?