Cycling HCG

[jsmma]

Have seen that extended use of HCG can desensitize Leydig cells.

If cycling, how should I go about that?

I just started TRT 3-4 weeks ago. Still waiting on scrip for HCG injections. Just switched my test cyp from IM to subQ injections today at I believe 28mg/.13ml EOD.

I plan on doing subQ HCG injections 250iu either EOD or m,w,f - still trying to see what is better?

I'm 30, total t was 344. Still waiting on some labs with E2 numbers as well as a few other things.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[Gene Devine]

Have seen that extended use of HCG can desensitize Leydig cells.

Not exactly true. Desensitization happens with much larger doses not extended use. HCG, as an LH analog, in smaller physiological doses will not desensitize the leydig cells. Therefore, there is no need to cycle HCG.

If cycling, how should I go about that?

As noted, no cycling HCG unless you are using it as part of a HPTA restart protocol after an aas cycle.

I just started TRT 3-4 weeks ago. Still waiting on scrip for HCG injections. Just switched my test cyp from IM to subQ injections today at I believe 28mg/.13ml EOD.

I plan on doing subQ HCG injections 250iu either EOD or m,w,f - still trying to see what is better?

I use to do 250 iu m, w, f, as well...now I am 125 iu daily. The above is a nice protocol as well.

I'm 30, total t was 344. Still waiting on some labs with E2 numbers as well as a few other things.

You're awfully young to be so low, did you get a diagnosis as to why you are so low?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Above in bold!

 

[Gene Devine]

jsmma - I moved your post to the general forum so it gets more exposure and response.

GD

 

[jsmma]

Thanks for replies. Good info.

As to diagnosis, unfortunately the PA I went to just looked at the T numbers, and proceeded with TRT. I've learned since alot more labs could/should have been done to give a bigger picture of the cause.

I had labs pulled last week on alot of things I read would be beneficial to rooting out a possible reason.

I've always had a pretty negative diet, from birth to now. I know that can contribute. About 3-4 years pretty heavy drinking from 21-25 or so. Not sure if any effect.

I was also going to ask for thoughts on my job.

I rotate from days to nights, weekly. I've heard there are few things worse for hormones and long term health than this schedule.

Growing up playing sports, and trying to maintain some type of workout regimen has been really difficult over the 7 years I have been on this schedule.

I think it has played a huge part.

Also, done lo carb diets, Atkins, etc. Back and forth, back and forth.

Just haven't maintained a routine so I figure I'm always shocking the system. Not sure of potential effects there.

 

[Gene Devine]

Life style is a big contributing factor to lower androgen levels and clinicians are seeing more and more younger men with suppressed serum levels...you may just be one of those although I would have liked to rule out all other causes.

BTW, I am stealing this post from Dr John Crisler on the FB Group re HCG and desensitization:

" Ask how providing a LH analog, at roughly normal concentration, could possibly cause "desensitization". Were that the case, nearly everyone, not on HCG, would be "desensitized".

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Jsmma

Click on links please.

Interesting data on shift work.

In a study of the internal desynchronization of circadian rhythms in 12 shift workers, 4 of them, aged 25 to 34 years, agreed to be sampled every 2 h during their night shift (0000 hours to 0800 hours). They were oil refinery operators with a fast rotating shift system (every 3 to 4 days). We found marked changes in the secretory profiles of melatonin, prolactin and testosterone. Melatonin had higher peak-values resulting in a four-times higher amplitude than in controls. With respect to prolactin and testosterone, peak and trough times were erratic and the serum concentrations were significantly decreased in shift workers. Serum cortisol presented a decreased rhythm amplitude together with higher concentrations at 0000 hours in shift workers. This study clearly shows that fast rotating shift-work modifies peak or trough values and rhythm amplitudes of melatonin, prolactin, testosterone and cortisol without any apparent phase shift of these hormones. Whether the large rhythm amplitude of melatonin may be considered as a marker of tolerance to shift work, as reported for body temperature and hand grip strength, since it would help the subjects to maintain their internal synchronization, needs further investigation.

Is there an association between shift work and having a metabolic syndrome? Results from a population-based study of 27,485 people
In this study, obesity, high triglycerides, and low concentrations of HDL cholesterol seem to cluster together more often in shift workers than in day workers, which might indicate an association between shift work and the metabolic syndrome.

Light therapy and regulation may help shift workers' health

 

[Nelson Vergel]

LONG TERM HCG- Does it stop working due to testicle Leydig cell desensitization?

This study of two people did not show issues after 23 months of high doses: http://www.eje-online.org/content/53/2/315.short

This study showed no long term reduction in efficacy:
http://www.eje.org/content/77/4/753.short

This old study in rats probably fueled the misconception, but at these doses in rat cells HCG receptor occupancy returned to normal after 120 hours. How can we extrapolate to humans? http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0303720777900727

 

[Dr. John Crisler]

LONG TERM HCG- Does it stop working due to testicle Leydig cell desensitization?

This study of two people did not show issues after 23 months of high doses: http://www.eje-online.org/content/53/2/315.short

This study showed no long term reduction in efficacy:
http://www.eje.org/content/77/4/753.short

This old study in rats probably fueled the misconception, but at these doses in rat cells HCG receptor occupancy returned to normal after 120 hours. How can we extrapolate to humans? http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0303720777900727

IF we are to place any weight on this study, it proves dosing HCG every 3-4 days is, frankly, stupid.

The resultant biphasic response is proof (for those who truly understand how hormones work) such a dosing schedule induces Leydig cell desensitization. I have been preaching this for nearly a decade now.

Small, daily shots of HCG produce the most physiologic ("normal") hormonal milieu. It also helps backfill the pathways. This is why men do better on it. And injecting in the morning provides for the increased sense of well-being, and libido, HCG brings as it binds to the LH receptors in the more peripheral (emotional) centers of the brain, that you can then enjoy all day.

 

[Excellent]

What is the maximum dosage for "Small, daily shots of HCG" that one should take while pairing with T injections?

 

[Vince Carter]

daily HCG can range from 100iu being the most typical, to 150iu

 

[Excellent]

daily HCG can range from 100iu being the most typical, to 150iu

Thanks Vince, that seems to be much different from the amounts posited in the studies above. Are there any scientific journals that support this amount and also refute larger daily amounts?

 

[Vince Carter]

Thanks Vince, that seems to be much different from the amounts posited in the studies above. Are there any scientific journals that support this amount and also refute larger daily amounts?

You just got a definitive answer with daily HCG.

 

[Jeromefrance]

I am mooving from 500ui 2x week To 125ui hcg daily along with my daily t subq 16mg.
This because of High estradiol even with daily testosterone.. I suspect the hcg

 

[Vince Carter]

I am mooving from 500ui 2x week To 125ui hcg daily along with my daily t subq 16mg.
This because of High estradiol even with daily testosterone.. I suspect the hcg

This is entirely possible the direct stim to the testes of HCG can lead to in specific guys over aromatase, if a guy has problems with HCG, it generally will run to Estrogen.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Doses of HCG of under 250 IU every three weeks along with TRT have been shown not to be enough to increase intratesticular testosterone and improve sperm count.

Best HCG Dose for Men on TRT: Two Studies That Used HCG with Testosterone

 

[Nelson Vergel]

The increase of estradiol caused by 250-500 IU of HCG is small and it stabilizes after a few days.

Does HCG promote excessive aromatization while on TRT?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

The best way to find out early (before waiting for 6-8 weeks for semen analysis) if HCG+ TRT is restoring fertility is to run this test:

17 - OH Progesterone : HCG + TRT Efficacy Predictor

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Please watch this video that I made two years ago. It seems that some new members on here have not seen it.
Video Lecture: hCG Use in Men- Review of Studies by Nelson Vergel - Testosterone Wisdom

 

[Jeromefrance]

This is entirely possible the direct stim to the testes of HCG can lead to in specific guys over aromatase, if a guy has problems with HCG, it generally will run to Estrogen.

Maybe i just should try To avoid it and see how i Feel without it. I am concerned About other hormones linked with it. I Will keep with low dose for 4weeks and Will do BW To see where is my estradiol at. And if it stay high,i will drop the HCG.

 

[Jeromefrance]

This is entirely possible the direct stim to the testes of HCG can lead to in specific guys over aromatase, if a guy has problems with HCG, it generally will run to Estrogen.

Do you think less amount of hcg daily will produce less aromatase ?