Complete opposite results from similar dosages.

[WhatSayYou89]

When I first started on TRT about 4 years ago my first protocol was 140mg test cyp a week with 80 units of hcg.

My blood results for this came back at 467 total t, free t 19 & e2 at 17.

Came off of it for a few years. Started back on trt about 2 months ago at 140mg a week of test cyp and No hcg this time.

The results this time are total T of 1100, free t 30 & e2 of 30.

The only differences that I can think of is I’m not taking adderall now and the injection site site. (Still IM).

 

[Gman86]

Same brand of test?

 

[WhatSayYou89]

Same brand of test?

Yup

 

[Vince]

When I first started on TRT about 4 years ago my first protocol was 140mg test cyp a week with 80 units of hcg.

My blood results for this came back at 467 total t, free t 19 & e2 at 17.

Came off of it for a few years. Started back on trt about 2 months ago at 140mg a week of test cyp and No hcg this time.

The results this time are total T of 1100, free t 30 & e2 of 30.

The only differences that I can think of is I’m not taking adderall now and the injection site site. (Still IM).

Your first results were wrong..

 

[WhatSayYou89]

Had my follow up with the Dr. today and she mentioned a good point.

That the possible reason the results could have been so different is that my shbg shot up to 120 the first time we tried this.

My shbg has always set at 30 on all of the labs I’ve done except for around that time frame and quadrupled around those times.

Now I’m wondering what the major cause of the shbg shift could of been?

I’ve read hcg can cause it to increase so maybe that?

 

[Weasel]

SHBG will not change Total Testosterone.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

SHBG will not change Total Testosterone.

I see, well yeah looks like those first results were just plain wrong then.

 

[Cataceous]

SHBG will not change Total Testosterone.

Let me fix that for you: SHBG will not change free testosterone.

It is expected that for the same testosterone input, if SHBG goes up then total testosterone goes up. The reason why is that we basically use and eliminate testosterone in proportion to our free testosterone level. Therefore, at steady state free testosterone remains in proportion to dose; if the dose is the same then free testosterone is the same. Total testosterone becomes the dependent variable. You can play with the free testosterone calculators to get a sense of how total testosterone changes in response to changes in SHBG. You just have to use trial and error to keep free testosterone the same.

 

[Weasel]

Let me fix that for you: SHBG will not change free testosterone.

It is expected that for the same testosterone input, if SHBG goes up then total testosterone goes up. The reason why is that we basically use and eliminate testosterone in proportion to our free testosterone level. Therefore, at steady state free testosterone remains in proportion to dose; if the dose is the same then free testosterone is the same. Total testosterone becomes the dependent variable. You can play with the free testosterone calculators to get a sense of how total testosterone changes in response to changes in SHBG. You just have to use trial and error to keep free testosterone the same.

I cannot agree with that Cataeous.

SHBG – A Modulator to be Modulated | ZRT Laboratory

SHBG, or Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, controls testosterone effect in both men and women by modulating changes in sex steroid levels. When SHBG goes up, free testosterone goes down. Since it binds so specifically and tightly to testosterone, it makes up part of the equation that equals androgen...

www.zrtlab.com

This article states in the 1st paragraph "When SHBG goes up, free testosterone goes down."

SHBG and Free Testosterone - Everything You Need to Know

However, this hormone has several fractions. It is influenced by your lifestyle and it can influence how you think and how you feel. For example, too much sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) can decre

www.discountedlabs.com

This article states essentially the same in the 2nd paragraph.
"For example, too much sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) can decrease free testosterone which can lead to low libido and other symptoms. That is why some men search for ways to decrease SHBG levels."

 

[Gman86]

Let me fix that for you: SHBG will not change free testosterone.

It is expected that for the same testosterone input, if SHBG goes up then total testosterone goes up. The reason why is that we basically use and eliminate testosterone in proportion to our free testosterone level. Therefore, at steady state free testosterone remains in proportion to dose; if the dose is the same then free testosterone is the same. Total testosterone becomes the dependent variable. You can play with the free testosterone calculators to get a sense of how total testosterone changes in response to changes in SHBG. You just have to use trial and error to keep free testosterone the same.

This is exactly what has happened to me in the past. SHBG would go down, and free T would stay the exact same, dude to my total T also going down

 

[Cataceous]

I cannot agree with that Cataeous.
...
This article states in the 1st paragraph "When SHBG goes up, free testosterone goes down."
...
This article states essentially the same in the 2nd paragraph.
"For example, too much sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) can decrease free testosterone which can lead to low libido and other symptoms. That is why some men search for ways to decrease SHBG levels."

The misconception occurs in part because higher SHBG with fixed total testosterone results in lower free testosterone. But that is not a physiological situation. With TRT, or even with a normal HPTA, there is a relatively constant input of testosterone, which drives a relatively constant free testosterone, so that excretion matches intake. This is independent of SHBG. Thus total testosterone, and not free testosterone, is driven by SHBG. The assumptions made to reach this conclusion are straightforward. Which ones do you think are wrong?

As far as I can see the articles are offering no evidence. The associations may exist, but do not show causality. Can you locate any studies that directly demonstration a causal relationship? These have to account for confounding factors, such as higher free testosterone acting on the liver to reduce SHBG.

 

[Gman86]

Found the labs I was referring to where total changed but free T stayed the same


8-15-17 labs were while on this protocol:
Test- 90mg
HCG - 600IU (Pregnyl)
Arimidex - 0.25mg EOD
Total T - 1299 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 146.6 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 307.8 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 51 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 8
E2 NOT Sensitive - 13
E2 Free - 0.28 (0.2-1.5)


12-13-17 labs were while on this protocol:
Test- 90mg
HCG- 800iu (Pregnyl)
Exemestane - 6.25mg EOD
Total T - 974 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 142.6 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 287.0 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 36 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 9
E2 NOT Sensitive - 13
E2 Free - 0.28 (0.2-1.5)

 

[tareload]

Chapter 12 - Hypothalamo-Pituitary Unit, Testis, and Male Accessory Organs

Read this chapter. Chapter 12 - Hypothalamo-Pituitary Unit, Testis, and Male Accessory Organs https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780323479127000123?via%3Dihub From https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780323479127/yen-and-jaffes-reproductive-endocrinology

www.excelmale.com

 

[Vince]

Found the labs I was referring to where total changed but free T stayed the same


8-15-17 labs were while on this protocol:
Test- 90mg
HCG - 600IU (Pregnyl)
Arimidex - 0.25mg EOD
Total T - 1299 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 146.6 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 307.8 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 51 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 8
E2 NOT Sensitive - 13
E2 Free - 0.28 (0.2-1.5)


12-13-17 labs were while on this protocol:
Test- 90mg
HCG- 800iu (Pregnyl)
Exemestane - 6.25mg EOD
Total T - 974 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 142.6 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 287.0 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 36 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 9
E2 NOT Sensitive - 13
E2 Free - 0.28 (0.2-1.5)

Besides, the Arimidex, your protocol looks pretty good.

 

[Gman86]

Besides, the Arimidex, your protocol looks pretty good.

Those were such old protocols. Think they were a few of the first protocols I tried when I switched to defy. I eventually realized I need much higher free T levels to feel good, and I also realized I tolerate high E2 pretty well, and most likely don’t ever need to take ai’s ever again. Currently using 200mg of test/ week, 100-125mg of nandrolone/ week, 1.35iu’s HGH/ day, 1mg of injectable prog/ day, 1000iu’s HCG/ week, and feel a lot better than I did on those two protocols back in 2017

 

[Vince]

Those were such old protocols. Think they were a few of the first protocols I tried when I switched to defy. I eventually realized I need much higher free T levels to feel good, and I also realized I tolerate high E2 pretty well, and most likely don’t ever need to take ai’s ever again. Currently using 200mg of test/ week, 100-125mg of nandrolone/ week, 1.35iu’s HGH/ day, 1mg of injectable prog/ day, 1000iu’s HCG/ week, and feel a lot better than I did on those two protocols back in 2017

I too also like higher levels of testosterone, not as high as yours though.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

So I went backed and looked at the labs again of when that SHBG came back at 4 times the previous amount.

That same labwork had these as my levels:

Total T - 102
Free T - 43
E2 - 55
SHBG - 117
DHT - 161

So according to that Total T goes down. Unless they messed that one up as well.

I had labcorp redo the free and total t a week later bc I thought they messed something up.

Those results came back at total of 1333 and free of 40.

Idk if the labwork was messed up or if the shbg really did spike somehow.

 

[Dicky]

Let me fix that for you: SHBG will not change free testosterone.

It is expected that for the same testosterone input, if SHBG goes up then total testosterone goes up. The reason why is that we basically use and eliminate testosterone in proportion to our free testosterone level. Therefore, at steady state free testosterone remains in proportion to dose; if the dose is the same then free testosterone is the same. Total testosterone becomes the dependent variable. You can play with the free testosterone calculators to get a sense of how total testosterone changes in response to changes in SHBG. You just have to use trial and error to keep free testosterone the same.

I have to admit that I am having lots of trouble wrapping my head around this idea. It goes against a lot of conventional wisdom.

So does this mean that the strategy of taking drugs that lower SHBG with the goal of increasing free T has always been a useless idea? That really the only way to increase free T is to inject more testosterone?

If lowering SHBG lowers free T, how do we explain the common phenotype of a guy that has middling total T levels, but with very low SHBG along with high free T? If lower SHBG doesn't explain the high free T, what does explain it?

 

[Systemlord]

Total T - 102
Free T - 43
E2 - 55
SHBG - 117

A huge disconnect there between the Total T and SHBG, clearly a lab error.

 

[Cataceous]

I have to admit that I am having lots of trouble wrapping my head around this idea. It goes against a lot of conventional wisdom.

So does this mean that the strategy of taking drugs that lower SHBG with the goal of increasing free T has always been a useless idea? That really the only way to increase free T is to inject more testosterone?
...

Forcing down SHBG in isolation should not have much effect on free testosterone. Instead it drives down total testosterone. This does imply conventional wisdom has been incorrect. I've been guilty of promulgating such myself. It's good to keep an open mind and question beliefs that may not have firm foundations.

You can increase free testosterone by either raising the dose, or in theory by decreasing your metabolic clearance rate.

...
If lowering SHBG lowers free T, how do we explain the common phenotype of a guy that has middling total T levels, but with very low SHBG along with high free T? If lower SHBG doesn't explain the high free T, what does explain it?

As noted, lowering SHBG lowers total T, not free T. Regarding the phenotype, the first factor is that the dose is high for a guy on TRT. For a natural guy it would be a naturally high set point for free testosterone. The second factor is that SHBG is naturally low and/or has been driven down by the relatively high free testosterone. This latter turns around the causality in the association by saying that it's elevated free testosterone that's pushing down SHBG.