Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[susuzadam]

@Coconutz @solothesensei @RAS
I live in turkey, ı couldn't find only estradiol valerate on pharmacy. They sell cyclo-progynova, which contains 10x 2mg estradiol valerate, 11x 2mg estradiol+ 0.5mg norgestrel.
Norgestrel is progestin. I use tren and caber too. I want to know If I can use the tablets with progestin too?

I was dealing with dry joints, on my knees and horrible back pain for 8 months, after using aromasin and some proviron. That symptoms started after I lowered my test enanthate dose from 250mgx2, 500mg totally per week. And, last week I shot 4x 250mgs test-e, and around 500mg test-ace. No joint reliefs, no emotionalness, nothing, libido went down also.

Then bought cyclo-progynova, started 1 tab first day, then for 3 days 2x tab. On the 4. Day 1 took 4x2mg estradiol tabs.
Erection quality went up, libido went up, unhedonia went down a bit. Joints still dry tho.
I gave my bloods for total testosterone, I think right now my testosterone is too much for my estradiol levels.

I searched some forums for low SHBG and trt level test, dry joints low libido etc. I firstly found high dose of long ester testosterone, and It just made everything worse.

So the last chance is supplementing estradiol by taking it, and I think thats gonna solve my problem.

Do you think taking progestins have similar effects like taking allopregnenolone? Leo and longevity says something about taking progesterone directly.

 

[zancek0]

@Coconutz @solothesensei @RAS
I live in turkey, ı couldn't find only estradiol valerate on pharmacy. They sell cyclo-progynova, which contains 10x 2mg estradiol valerate, 11x 2mg estradiol+ 0.5mg norgestrel.
Norgestrel is progestin. I use tren and caber too. I want to know If I can use the tablets with progestin too?

I was dealing with dry joints, on my knees and horrible back pain for 8 months, after using aromasin and some proviron. That symptoms started after I lowered my test enanthate dose from 250mgx2, 500mg totally per week. And, last week I shot 4x 250mgs test-e, and around 500mg test-ace. No joint reliefs, no emotionalness, nothing, libido went down also.

Then bought cyclo-progynova, started 1 tab first day, then for 3 days 2x tab. On the 4. Day 1 took 4x2mg estradiol tabs.
Erection quality went up, libido went up, unhedonia went down a bit. Joints still dry tho.
I gave my bloods for total testosterone, I think right now my testosterone is too much for my estradiol levels.

I searched some forums for low SHBG and trt level test, dry joints low libido etc. I firstly found high dose of long ester testosterone, and It just made everything worse.

So the last chance is supplementing estradiol by taking it, and I think thats gonna solve my problem.

Do you think taking progestins have similar effects like taking allopregnenolone? Leo and longevity says something about taking progesterone directly.

Hey, do you mind sharing in clear detail how this started?
So you were doing how much test per week before the crash? And how much aromasin and proviron were you using?
Also, have you been using tren at the time when you crashed?
What is your protocol right now? And what are your symptoms beside those that you mentioned? Any anxiety?

Anyway - avoid progestins and progesterone for now. It will downregulate estrogen receptors which we likely don't want in a crashed state.

 

[susuzadam]

Hey, do you mind sharing in clear detail how this started?
So you were doing how much test per week before the crash? And how much aromasin and proviron were you using?
Also, have you been using tren at the time when you crashed?
What is your protocol right now? And what are your symptoms beside those that you mentioned? Any anxiety?

Anyway - avoid progestins and progesterone for now. It will downregulate estrogen receptors which we likely don't want in a crashed state.

I'm powerlifting for 4 years or so, and started test+ anadrol. Started arimidex for e2 management. Never felt helpless.
My left nipple milked somehow, and I looked bloods, my e2 went up too much also prolactin. I met with caber.

Then I saw, aromasin is good on lipids. After aromasin my libido was fluctuating. It went a bit, then started tren on low doses after 9 months of test + anadrol.

The dry joint issue was started at 2022 september I think. I was taking 500mg test-e 2 shots/w. And some tren. I was wearing ripped knee pants, that why I thought that must be from keeping my knees cold.
I heard about low test high tren. Lowered my test-e to trt levels,ed or eod shots. Libido anger everything has gone.
I wasn't taking aromasin on low test doses.
I bought test prop, injected 40mg everyday or so with 40mg tren everday. Paranoia came etc.

Until 2022 september, I think my aromatization started to went down. Now the last week I shot 1000 mg test e and test ace zero relief. Back than using proviron 50mg a day for a month or so.

Before september sex was also very wild, insatiable, more fetishes. Now It's standard.

I started e2 valerate on july 24th 2mg.
25th 2 mg am, 2mg pm
26 same.
27 4mg am 4mg pm
28 4mg am 4mg pm
29 4mg am 4mg pm half of them with progestins.
30th (today) 4mg am, waiting for pm.

I noticed nothing about progestin+ e2 tabs.

I'm on 30 mg tren for 2 week, before was 50mg. But with 1ml cialis my erections and sex drive was worse.

After e2 tabs my apetite went up, my knees healed a bit, my back still hurts, normy libido, sex drive upped a bit.
Taking 0.5mg caber/w
5mg cialis daily.
400mcg selenium
Lisinopril 20mg
Nebivolol 5mg

 

[susuzadam]

Anyway - avoid progestins and progesterone for now. It will downregulate estrogen receptors which we likely don't want in a crashed state.

This info will be useful but I need some more cash for brewing my own e2 or taking only e2 ones.

Also brewed my own test ace and tren ace, my friends using the same compound as me. Only I'm dealing with this issues.

And admin, I'm sorry for mentioning my blast and tren history, but I think that was necessary to talk. Even I'm on tren for a year, my libido just went down, my knees hurt, my lower back hurts. I can squat every 20 days or so, back than I was doing 3x/week.

I hope some low shbg or low aromatizer guy or who ruined by aromasin sees this topic and starts to take e2 exogenously.

In the other steroid forums, meatheads just bullying for using e2.

 

[zancek0]

I would try to avoid tren. It binds to both progesterone and glucocorticoid receptors, likely upregulating AR (androgen receptors) via weaker glucocorticoid receptor binding (AR and GR are in tight interaction) and downregulating ER via progesterone activity. Proviron also upregulates 5AR due to being weaker than pure DHT and binding to AR. I'm not sure about aromasin - it doesnt lead to rebound effect so idk what happens to ER expression...

I'm actually in a similar boat. Crashed E2 with aromasin while natty and havent recovered. That was 5 months ago. Started TRT 2 months ago - 20mg eod (70mg/week) and slightly improved in some aspects but anxiety worsened. On blood tests this amount of test brought my levels to 2000. So I dropped the dose to 8mg ED and added inj. e2 enanthate 0.1mg ED (had a custom vial made - 5mg/ml). Weirdly enough, I don't seem to benefit much from this. Every scent is magnified 10x for some reason, haha. But I don't feel much better. The dose is very low and I've just started this about 2 weeks ago. However, I've also just started a new summer job and I really need to be functional which right now I am barely. I seem to have aggravated some issues post vaccine with this E2 crash...
So why am I not feeling that good on exo E2? It could be because low test dose preferentially converts to DHT, doubly so to oppose elevated E2 levels by exo E2. AR regulate themselves partly also in response to ER and estrogens. So if you have high E2 levels AR will upregulate. But now with me doing very low doses of test that possibly convert to DHT more than to E2 and also adding exo e2 I'm likely just upregulating AR and 5AR and downregulating ER. I don't know yet.
It's a puzzle. But I think that your issues might also involve electrolyte and mineral imbalance, possibly even infections.

Dont add DHEA or prog to your protocol. You could probably decrease test dose and increase potassium intake which you're likely deficient in. Dont take pills with progestins. Just basic oral e2. Right now I can't offer much guidance since I havent yet recovered.

Btw, do you have any extensive labs to share?

 

[zancek0]

I heard about low test high tren. Lowered my test-e to trt levels,ed or eod shots. Libido anger everything has gone.
I wasn't taking aromasin on low test doses.
I bought test prop, injected 40mg everyday or so with 40mg tren everday. Paranoia came etc.

Sorry, not sure if I understand: what was your TRT dose at this point?
Also, what was your aromasin dose when you noticed symptoms?

Taking 0.5mg caber/w
5mg cialis daily.

Stop daily cialis or reduce to 2.5mg EOD. It has AI properties.
Caber might not be necessary without tren. But it might be necessary with oral e2 pills. I'd reduce to 0.25/week.

 

[susuzadam]

Sorry, not sure if I understand: what was your TRT dose at this point?

I tried enanthate test 120-200mg week. No libido.
I think without tren and cialis last some weeks I wouldnt talk to my girlfriend. They helped me for that, or I thought so

Caber might not be necessary without tren. But it might be necessary with oral e2 pills. I'd reduce to 0.25/week.

Actually I will up to the 0.75mg a week, because for last 2 days I cant orgasm second or third a day.

But now with me doing very low doses of test that possibly convert to DHT more than to E2

This conflicts with latest posts of coconut and my history. If you add more testosterone, and we cant aromatize enough, than the battles winner is dht again. If you lower the test dose you take, even our low aromatize capacity found opportunity to e2 to catch dht levels. Dont you think that makes sense?

I'm mentioning again, my apetite went up so much. Im 185 cm 108-110 kg. But for 8 months or so I'm 107-110 kg. Now with e2 I saw 111 kgs. Even with lower tren.
I would like to know, If I had sufficient e2 levels last 8 months, what would my lifts and my physique be.

 

[zancek0]

Yeah, I had to end my relationship because of this, fuck me. The regret is real. So I sympathize. You might want to explain your situation to your gf. Ultimately you're digging yourself a bigger hole under your feet with tren.

So I don't think the lack of aromatase is the problem. Coconutz never provided his labs because he didnt test for e2. I think the problems lies in the dysregulation of ER, AR, PR and GR. Aromatase is likely doing just fine. Of course, I can't be sure. You might be right - maybe aromatase enzyme really is downregulated to such an extent due to aromasin that we don't get enough E2 this way (on this forum some people that crashed e2 while natty actually had blood tests done that showed very high tt:e2 ratio so this is possible). But there's many stories of crashing E2 with arimidex, for example. Same symptoms. And also, there's many people using aromasin that don't report these issues. Coconutz thinks that aromasin permanently destroyed his aromatase enzymes - aromasin really does that by irreversibly binding to aromatase, however new ones should get created over time. So this is why I think the problem is not aromatase per se.

 

[susuzadam]

Btw, do you have any extensive labs to share?

14 june 2023
30mg test ace 50mg tren ace a day. 2 hours before bloods I shot
Estradiol 258pg ml
Total test 15+ ug l

27 july 2023
Didnt shot tren this morning, took 2mg estradiol tab 2 hours before bloods. and didnt shot testosterone for 2 days, waiting to test enanthate to clear from my system.
Estradiol 157pg ml
Total test 13.4 ug l

With tren and exogenous e2, my e2 just showed 157. I think without tren and e2 my e2 levels would be around 10-25.

Back then with 500+ mgs test I was keeping my estradiol around 35 or so.

 

[zancek0]

I see. Hm, interesting. But look - 14 june your e2 is very high. So we can suppose that your aromatase is OK.
EDIT: Oh, did you mean that 500mgs test was keeping your e2 at 35 without AI?

 

[susuzadam]

I see. Hm, interesting. But look - 14 june your e2 is very high. So we can suppose that your aromatase is OK.
EDIT: Oh, did you mean that 500mgs test was keeping your e2 at 35 without AI?

Tren shows up as a e2 on my lab.

Back then, while on test only 500+ mgs my e2 show up as 135 or so. I was sugarcraving, emotional, pitting edema etc.
Normally e2 is around 35-65.

So, even on 210mg tren and exo e2, my e2 only came 157.
With 350 tren e2 came 258,
I think if we use direct proportion for e2 levels,
30mgs tren a day+ exogenous e2, 150pg e2
50mg tren a day, 250pg e2.
Also very similar test levels between two bloods.

I think I dont even aromatize.

 

[zancek0]

I'd like to see your e2 levels before injection.
Hm, oral e2 very quickly converts to other forms of estrogen. Did you try crushing the pill and putting it under tongue yet - so sublingually?

 

[susuzadam]

EDIT: Oh, did you mean that 500mgs test was keeping your e2 at 35 without AI?

I was using ai, arimidex or aromasin.
Without ai It climbed to 135 levels, and high e2 symptoms.

Did you try crushing the pill and putting it under tongue yet - so sublingually?

No I haven't tried it yet. I might try it. Some male to female reddit posts say e2 tab sublingual makes change. But their tablets are soluble in mouth I think. This tablet is like a aromasin, sweety taste seems like not soluble.

Cialis 5-10mg everyday.
Test prop or test ace only, varying doses between 15mg-40mg everyday, my symptoms were;

Knee pain, even while sitting aches 6/10
Back pain, mobility restriction 6/10, I just could specialize overhead presses. Cant deadlift and squat.
Apetite 3/10
Unhedonia not so much, I feel it low dose test long ester everyday injections, for example 25mg test cyp a day.
Sex drive 4/10
Libido 4/10

20mg test ace a day was like the same but at least I can function in bed.

On short esters, I didn't feel unhedonia.
Long ester test dose Deppression, even smoking doesn't satisfied me.

 

[zancek0]

I was using ai, arimidex or aromasin.
Without ai It climbed to 135 levels, and high e2 symptoms.



No I haven't tried it yet. I might try it. Some male to female reddit posts say e2 tab sublingual makes change. But their tablets are soluble in mouth I think. This tablet is like a aromasin, sweety taste seems like not soluble.

Cialis 5-10mg everyday.
Test prop or test ace only, varying doses between 15mg-40mg everyday, my symptoms were;

Knee pain, even while sitting aches 6/10
Back pain, mobility restriction 6/10, I just could specialize overhead presses. Cant deadlift and squat.
Apetite 3/10
Unhedonia not so much, I feel it low dose test long ester everyday injections, for example 25mg test cyp a day.
Sex drive 4/10
Libido 4/10

20mg test ace a day was like the same but at least I can function in bed.

On short esters, I didn't feel unhedonia.
Long ester test dose Deppression, even smoking doesn't satisfied me.

Hm, still worth trying to see if there is a difference.

Huh, it's interesting that anhedonia is better when on short esters. I wonder why that is. But it has been reported before ...

 

[susuzadam]

Hm, still worth trying to see if there is a difference.

Huh, it's interesting that anhedonia is better when on short esters. I wonder why that is. But it has been reported before ...

And, my knees still aching and my back is the same.
6 days on 8mg estradiol valerate a day. 4mg am, 4mg pm. It became boring.

 

[zancek0]

And, my knees still aching and my back is the same.
6 days on 8mg estradiol valerate a day. 4mg am, 4mg pm. It became boring.

Ah shit, sorry to hear that it doesn't work well.
Idk what the protocol would be. Still trying to figure it out.
Do you perhaps feel shittier after a certain food or supplement?

 

[susuzadam]

Ah shit, sorry to hear that it doesn't work well.
Idk what the protocol would be. Still trying to figure it out.
Do you perhaps feel shittier after a certain food or supplement?

I looked to the discord server of sweaty_literature_69, I will be taking e2 tabs only and sublingually. No progestin tabs.
I couldn't find e2 injectable form in turkey, so It's still waiting.
I won't take cialis, am not taking for 2 days.
Tren 30mg everyday,
10mg test ace everyday
E2 pills are not cheap tho, I'm medicine faculty student grade 5 btw. I will try 1mg sublingually am + 1mg pm.
25my cyp everyday, started today
Last night I shot 1ml deca. Tomorrow I will start using NPP everyday, for reducing DHT and raising e2 a bit. And fast healing for my joints and back, they are still hurts.

@Coconutz are using the similar testosterone protocol, he is using 50mg scrotal cream, 50mg dhea, 50mg pregnenolone cream, 5mg progesterone cream as an extra.

@zancek0 what protocol do you using right now?

 

[zancek0]

I looked to the discord server of sweaty_literature_69, I will be taking e2 tabs only and sublingually. No progestin tabs.
I couldn't find e2 injectable form in turkey, so It's still waiting.
I won't take cialis, am not taking for 2 days.
Tren 30mg everyday,
10mg test ace everyday
E2 pills are not cheap tho, I'm medicine faculty student grade 5 btw. I will try 1mg sublingually am + 1mg pm.
25my cyp everyday, started today
Last night I shot 1ml deca. Tomorrow I will start using NPP everyday, for reducing DHT and raising e2 a bit. And fast healing for my joints and back, they are still hurts.

@Coconutz are using the similar testosterone protocol, he is using 50mg scrotal cream, 50mg dhea, 50mg pregnenolone cream, 5mg progesterone cream as an extra.

@zancek0 what protocol do you using right now?

Right now I'm 9 days off my TRT+E2 protocol (8mg test e ED + 0.1mg estradiol e ED), doing it cold turkey style. Primarily going off because I've decided to first pursue recovery with non-hormonal approach. But I also went off because I haven't yet had a comprehensive bloodwork done after my crash. I need to see where my TT, E2, SHBG, prolactin, DHT, progesterone, cortisol, FSH, LH, thyroid, electrolytes etc. levels are while "natty". I think this is important.

Coconutz protocol is in my opinion bound to fail. It cannot work. Check this: Aromasin ruined me for good..
This is him year after the post on this forum. You see, he had to increase oral e2 dose and add injectable E2. This is because he's using high doses of prog, dhea and preg along with supplemental E2 making his estrogen receptors less sensitive over time. Scrotal cream is not making him any favours either since this route of test administration likely preferential converts to DHT which blocks to some extent estrogen signalling.


Your new protocol will be an interesting experiment. However, it might not work that well - you have two progestins/progestogens - tren and NPP. So that might interfere with estrogen activity. I hope it works though. It's good you went with NPP since it clears out fast. Maybe cycling will work...


Btw, since you're a med student - do you have easier access to labs so you can test for DHT and progesterone etc?

 

[susuzadam]

Btw, since you're a med student - do you have easier access to labs so you can test for DHT and progesterone etc?

Yes, I go for urology and want bloods, dht results come a bit slow, and there is no sensitive estradiol, except these, I can give blood whenever I want.

What about npp-tren-e2 only cycle. No test. @equel was talking about nandrolone only cycle for who struggles with high e2, and I never saw someone using with low e2 like us.

 

[zancek0]

Yes, I go for urology and want bloods, dht results come a bit slow, and there is no sensitive estradiol, except these, I can give blood whenever I want.

What about npp-tren-e2 only cycle. No test. @equel was talking about nandrolone only cycle for who struggles with high e2, and I never saw someone using with low e2 like us.

O, that's great. DHT for example is extremely important but in my country it's hard to get too. The sample has to be send into another country and you have to wait for 2 weeks to get the result. But I will do it after my hpta resets. I hypothesize that high DHT levels will indicate overexpressed estrogen receptors regardless of how high/low E2 levels in blood will be...

It would be interesting for you to check as much markers as possible. The levels themselves aren't that important but the ratios between them are usually.

Npp+tren+E2 might be interesting. But I think that you would need injectable E2 like enanthate or cypionate, maybe valerate, since npp+tren won't provide enough aromatization (https://diyhrt.cafe/index.php/ has sources for e2).
Npp and tren both have progestogenic activity which might downregulate ER further in some cases. It's hard to predict that. I guess experimentation is the only way.