Bigger fluctuation for low shbg?

[eli]

So we've all heard low shbg people go through testosterone faster hence they need to inject more often.

Imagine two people, low shbg and high shbg, inject once every 5 days

Does that mean low shbg guy sees a noticably higher drop in levels than high shbg by the 5th day?

Has anyone actually compared tests to see what the average percentage of drop is?
Like low shbg guys values drop 70% vs high shbg 30%

 

[TRicker]

I have low shbg, and my exogenous testosterone seems to stick around a while in my serum blood tests. I don't know if it's a difference between what's happening in the cells vs in the serum, for low shbg guys? I've also read that shbg is also the transport means for testosterone, so with less shbg it can't get around the body fast enough, which may be why my testosterone level stays elevated for quite a while after injection?
Who knows?

 

[bixt]

I have low shbg, and my exogenous testosterone seems to stick around a while in my serum blood tests

Can you please quantify this by posting the results of the tests. Have you tested peak and trough and found that there is not much of a variation, for you?

 

[Cataceous]

The thought experiment involves twins who are identical except for SHBG. First off, the rate of decline in serum testosterone after an injection of a testosterone ester is independent of SHBG. Instead it is mainly a function of the ester, the carrier oil, the additives, the injection site and activity level. So basically, if the half-life of testosterone cypionate is five days then the twins have identical amounts of free testosterone and see their levels halved after five days—assuming immediate post-injection peaks. What's interesting is that while total testosterone for each twin drops by roughly half in the five days, their levels are different, and the twin with higher SHBG has proportionally higher total testosterone throughout the injection cycle.

It's a myth that lower SHBG leads to faster metabolism/excretion of testosterone. Consider another thought experiment: Each twin has a constant slow infusion of testosterone such that there is no variation in serum levels at steady state and each twin is getting 5 mg of testosterone a day. How much does each metabolize and excrete? It has be be 5 mg per day regardless of SHBG, because at steady state they can't be using more or less than they're receiving.

 

[eli]

The thought experiment involves twins who are identical except for SHBG. First off, the rate of decline in serum testosterone after an injection of a testosterone ester is independent of SHBG. Instead it is mainly a function of the ester, the carrier oil, the additives, the injection site and activity level. So basically, if the half-life of testosterone cypionate is five days then the twins have identical amounts of free testosterone and see their levels halved after five days—assuming immediate post-injection peaks. What's interesting is that while total testosterone for each twin drops by roughly half in the five days, their levels are different, and the twin with higher SHBG has proportionally higher total testosterone throughout the injection cycle.

It's a myth that lower SHBG leads to faster metabolism/excretion of testosterone. Consider another thought experiment: Each twin has a constant slow infusion of testosterone such that there is no variation in serum levels at steady state and each twin is getting 5 mg of testosterone a day. How much does each metabolize and excrete? It has be be 5 mg per day regardless of SHBG, because at steady state they can't be using more or less than they're receiving.

Then why do low shbg are suggested to take more frequent injections? And they feel better.

The only thing that made sense was that with low shbg, T levels drop much faster than regular shbg and high shbg people

 

[TRicker]

Can you please quantify this by posting the results of the tests. Have you tested peak and trough and found that there is not much of a variation, for you?

I'll have to dig to find the tests from a few years ago, however I just noticed that even a week after a smaller (50mg) injection, my levels were still elevated. Of course they were lower than peak, but not as low as I would expect having a lower shbg (16). My trough is definitely lower, just not dramatically different from what I suspect those with normal shbg would see.

 

[eli]

I'll have to dig to find the tests from a few years ago, however I just noticed that even a week after a smaller (50mg) injection, my levels were still elevated. Of course they were lower than peak, but not as low as I would expect having a lower shbg (16). My trough is definitely lower, just not dramatically different from what I suspect those with normal shbg would see.

What's your protocol now and how do you feel

 

[TRicker]

I'm just starting back on 200mg/week (100mg 2x/week) with hcg. I started TRT at this dosage (Dr supervised), and I guess ignorance was bliss because I have way more issues now that I started trying to tweak things. I'll keep you posted in a few weeks.

In the last year I've tried drastically lowering the dose (70mg), I've tried eod dosing, 2x/week dosing, and subq eod dosing. Subq did not seem to work well for me. With low shbg, we've heard daily dosing is required, but I'd prefer to not take 365 IM jabs per year.

I also recently did a 5 month fertility run of 25mg/day of enclomiphene. It did raise my sperm count, but my testosterone never got over 300 (Lh was 3.4, FSH was 1.9). I ended that in October/November, and I'm still not back to normal. I gained 25lbs that I can't shake off no matter what I do. I absolutely ate a calorie deficit for at least 3-4 weeks with no fat loss, and haven't been this fat in 25 years of lifting/working out. I've read that there may be something to clom/enclo hurting men's metabolism. It was either the enclomiphene, or being at a sub 300 level for 5 months...or both. After the 5 months, I resumed TRT at 100mg/week, and definitely was still not feeling great (libido and eq are pretty bad).
Of interest on my enclomiphene trial, I tested everything at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and 16 weeks. My shbg remained 16-20 through week 12. However, at the 16 week mark, my shbg went up to 30. I'm not sure if it was a lab error, but my total test level was exactly 302 at week 12 and at week 16.

 

[bixt]

I also recently did a 5 month fertility run of 25mg/day of enclomiphene. It did raise my sperm count, but my testosterone never got over 300 (Lh was 3.4, FSH was 1.9)

Enclomiphene is superior theoretically. But sometimes I get the feeling plain old clomid works better in practise.

I have seen people with stupid levels of LH/FSH on regular clomid.

 

[Cataceous]

Then why do low shbg are suggested to take more frequent injections? And they feel better.

The only thing that made sense was that with low shbg, T levels drop much faster than regular shbg and high shbg people

There are some hypotheses, but it's not even a given that low-SHBG guys are helped significantly more than others by frequent injections. I'm unaware of any scientific evidence, and the anecdotal evidence is mixed. But assume it's true. Then you have this idea from "James" over at PeakTestosterone.com:

I believe the fluctuations we see in low SHBG men that require 3x-7x weekly dosing are due to rapid and highly exaggerated changes in free estradiol due to the above phenomenon as peaks and troughs radically alter free hormone binding and metabolism in the absence of proportionate quantities of SHBG.​

There could be something to this idea that short-term fluctuations contribute to the problems experienced with low SHBG. On TRT with injections the gross serum level of testosterone is controlled by the slow release of the testosterone ester from the depots. But it's possible that the reduced buffering capacity of lower SHBG doesn't allow adequate replenishment of free testosterone in the short run. On the other hand, how many processes are actually sensitive to short term variations, on the order of hours? More often we see the benefits of testosterone playing out over days, weeks and months.

 

[Charliebizz]

It’s funny though. A lot of the guys I actually see on a few Facebook groups that do well with low shbg are just doing higher doses. For years I’ve read frequent and lower overall dose is better. And that just doesn’t seem to be the case. And a ton of low shbg guys doing great with the transcrotal cream and there levels are sky high.

That said I just did a small trial with the cream. After the 4th day of 2 clicks am -2 pm. 20% cream. I had the most insane libido and erections were back to 100%. But I felt way over stimulated and had trouble sleeping. Then I lowered dose and lost the positives and gained some fatigue and body aches. I don’t know if I would have rode that out for a few weeks if things would have got better. But my mood was so up and down and I had this weird wired but tired feeling and I bailed.

 

[eli]

It’s funny though. A lot of the guys I actually see on a few Facebook groups that do well with low shbg are just doing higher doses. For years I’ve read frequent and lower overall dose is better. And that just doesn’t seem to be the case. And a ton of low shbg guys doing great with the transcrotal cream and there levels are sky high.

That said I just did a small trial with the cream. After the 4th day of 2 clicks am -2 pm. 20% cream. I had the most insane libido and erections were back to 100%. But I felt way over stimulated and had trouble sleeping. Then I lowered dose and lost the positives and gained some fatigue and body aches. I don’t know if I would have rode that out for a few weeks if things would have got better. But my mood was so up and down and I had this weird wired but tired feeling and I bailed.

Yes, it'll go away if you stick through

 

[Charliebizz]

Yes, it'll go away if you stick through

I just wonder how sustainable that libido was. It was intense man. And I was having night woods so hard I was having trouble sleeping lol.

That said i have low normal cortisol. And I kind of felt a lot of symptoms coming back of “ too low “ cortisol. I had issues in the past with it and can confirm with blood and saliva that test cyp crushed my cort. Test e doesn’t for some reason. I also read a study (on male monkeys) that high levels of dht can’t inhibit cortisol production. So kinda scared me off it to be honest. Plus the 2x application is very inconvenient.

 

[Charliebizz]

Then why do low shbg are suggested to take more frequent injections? And they feel better.

The only thing that made sense was that with low shbg, T levels drop much faster than regular shbg and high shbg people

I do have lab work showing how fast my tt and ft can drop from 8hours post injection to 26 hours.
I was doing 90mg a week split mwf. When I injected on Friday 4 a.m on last 30 mg shot of the week and got labs at noon my tt was around 900 and ft was 200 (top of range 155) then I’ve tested on sat morning 7-8 am roughly 26 hours after last injection for the week. I tested tt 500 and ft was 150. My shbg runs between 11-15

 

[Charliebizz]

I also wonder if low shbg guys are simply doing worse when they try and raise the dose because most are using a.I. because of this fear of free estrogen?. But then they do not use a.I when on cream because of the thought that higher dht counter acts the e2. Is it maybe us low shbg guys actually do need to run higher tt and let e2 fall where it may ?

 

[eli]

I also wonder if low shbg guys are simply doing worse when they try and raise the dose because most are using a.I. because of this fear of free estrogen?. But then they do not use a.I when on cream because of the thought that higher dht counter acts the e2. Is it maybe us low shbg guys actually do need to run higher tt and let e2 fall where it may ?

I do have lab work showing how fast my tt and ft can drop from 8hours post injection to 26 hours.
I was doing 90mg a week split mwf. When I injected on Friday 4 a.m on last 30 mg shot of the week and got labs at noon my tt was around 900 and ft was 200 (top of range 155) then I’ve tested on sat morning 7-8 am roughly 26 hours after last injection for the week. I tested tt 500 and ft was 150. My shbg runs between 11-15

Explains why on everyday injections we need to lower the dose

 

[Charliebizz]

Explains why on everyday injections we need to lower the dose

Did you ever run your tt and ft higher on injections without an a.I? like cream level free t ?

I only took 2 small dose of a.I back in the day. I really don’t ever wanna touch that crap. I really do not have any high e2 symptoms to speak of my only issues with trt is my eq isn’t 100% and my energy levels fluctuate a lot. May not even be related. But I also get these strange pressure headaches that annoy and depress me

 

[eli]

Did you ever run your tt and ft higher on injections without an a.I? like cream level free t ?

I only took 2 small dose of a.I back in the day. I really don’t ever wanna touch that crap. I really do not have any high e2 symptoms to speak of my only issues with trt is my eq isn’t 100% and my energy levels fluctuate a lot. May not even be related. But I also get these strange pressure headaches that annoy and depress me

I noticed that with the cream I don't aromatize like I do with injections, so that's why I thought maybe subQ causes higher e2. I responded really well to cream, felt all the benefits of trt except couldn't handle high DHT sides.

Now I remember the only other time I felt testosterone was when I inject 1.5 inch deep in muscle but that was years ago

 

[Charliebizz]

Did you ever run a high ft say like 30 or more on injections without a.I.

 

[eli]

Did you ever run a high ft say like 30 or more on injections without a.I.

Yeap, but high e2 made me feel nothing. The ratio of T to E is better on the cream