Big Drop in T going from IM to Sub-Q. Why?

[SkyWarn]

Last month my total T was 800. My protocol was 80mg weekly Test Cyp divided in 2 doses with 250 units HCG twice a week.
I switched to sub-q injections, same exact protocol except I increased the HCG to 350 units twice weekly.
Had blood draw Monday. After being on this protocol for 4 weeks my total T dropped to 600!
I don't understand why? Makes no sense.
But on the sub-q I could feel I wasn't getting that same mojo as I did with IM.
I am going right back to IM with my next shot.

 

[fifty]

I literally felt nothing on trt subq. Needed IM to feel any different back when i was 80mg twice a week

 

[SkyWarn]

I literally felt nothing on trt subq. Needed IM to feel any different back when i was 80mg twice a week

It really doesn't make sense. Its the same dosage. It might absorb more slowly, but eventually the same steady blood levels should be achieved.
As a side note, something that's really odd is, my Prolactin is normal. Its been historically high for the last 10 years. This is the first time it came back normal. And my FSH and LH (still low) is up substantially. Both have been .01 since starting TRT. Perhaps the HCG is playing a role.

 

[fifty]

There are studies showing IM injections get a way higher spike than subq. I think those were hcg studies but probably same deal.

Google Image Result for http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1FMilxltqG4/Ttd82tlnNWI/AAAAAAAAAI4/TgUXtTnJPoQ/s1600/HCG+Obese.jpg

 

[SilverSurfer]

Why would you assume “same deal” when HCG is vastly different than Testosterone? Am I missing something?

 

[Vince]

I inject both HCG and testosterone using an easy touch 29g 1/2" syringe, for a nice shallow IM injection. I've never had any issues using this method. I tried Sub-Q for a short time but never liked it.

 

[Cataceous]

When was the blood draw relative to injections?

 

[Vtail]

I started rotating shoulders (IM) and belly (SubQ) to average out any of the pros/cons that I have been reading about for each. I feel no difference in effect of the Test between those two sites. Those are also the two areas that are next to painless.

 

[HealthMan]

Last month my total T was 800. My protocol was 80mg weekly Test Cyp divided in 2 doses with 250 units HCG twice a week.
I switched to sub-q injections, same exact protocol except I increased the HCG to 350 units twice weekly.
Had blood draw Monday. After being on this protocol for 4 weeks my total T dropped to 600!
I don't understand why? Makes no sense.
But on the sub-q I could feel I wasn't getting that same mojo as I did with IM.
I am going right back to IM with my next shot.

I had the same problem. Although many people here say that IM and subq are interchangeable. Anedoctal evidence has shown again and again that for some men this is not true. You are just another case of many.

 

[Vince Carter]

And my FSH and LH (still low) is up substantially. Both have been .01 since starting TRT. Perhaps the HCG is playing a role.

There is no way you're on test and your LH/FSH have gone up and certainly not thru HCG use.

 

[Vince Carter]

When was the blood draw relative to injections?

That's the most obvious thing here. Injections at the same time, blood draws at the same time of day, same lab....side-by-side comparability goes out the window without that kind of consistency.

 

[Cataceous]

I had the same problem. Although many people here say that IM and subq are interchangeable. Anedoctal evidence has shown again and again that for some men this is not true. You are just another case of many.

IM and SQ deliver the same average serum testosterone, but the different half-lives mean that different subjective results are possible when the injection intervals aren't small compared to the ester half-lives.

 

[SkyWarn]

That's the most obvious thing here. Injections at the same time, blood draws at the same time of day, same lab....side-by-side comparability goes out the window without that kind of consistency.

At trough, on injection day just before injection. Both times. In the morning

 

[SkyWarn]

There is no way you're on test and your LH/FSH have gone up and certainly not thru HCG use.

FSH is .07 from .01
LH I read incorrectly, its actually .02 from .01
and Prolactin is normal (always high0 for the first time in years.
Again, I have no idea what if anything this means.

 

[SkyWarn]

I inject both HCG and testosterone using an easy touch 29g 1/2" syringe, for a nice shallow IM injection. I've never had any issues using this method. I tried Sub-Q for a short time but never liked it.

I need to figure out our to do that, I am overweight so there is more surface fat then muscle. Not sure if I could hit the muscle with a 1/2 inch needle

 

[Vince]

I need to figure out our to do that, I am overweight so there is more surface fat then muscle. Not sure if I could hit the muscle with a 1/2 inch needle

If it was me, I think I still would try a shallow IM. Then you could see what kind of results you get. The method is so simple and painless.

 

[HealthMan]

IM and SQ deliver the same average serum testosterone, but the different half-lives mean that different subjective results are possible when the injection intervals aren't small compared to the ester half-lives.

Here we go again Lets agree to disagree. For myself after testing a few times IM vs Subq there was a huge difference in my testosterone levels. Same dosage same injections frequency same everything. I have seen many other patients with the same “problem”. Also have seen the opposite. TRT protocols and results are not an one size fits all. For most people IM and Subq results might be the same. But not for all. And when you are part of the “not for all” you always dig a bit further to try to understand why

 

[Cataceous]

Here we go again Lets agree to disagree. For myself after testing a few times IM vs Subq there was a huge difference in my testosterone levels. Same dosage same injections frequency same everything. I have seen many other patients with the same “problem”. Also have seen the opposite. TRT protocols and results are not an one size fits all. For most people IM and Subq results might be the same. But not for all. And when you are part of the “not for all” you always dig a bit further to try to understand why

To demonstrate different average serum testosterone for identical dosing you would need to sample your levels frequently enough to accurately estimate the areas under the curves. If you do this a few times and consistently get very different numbers for IM and SQ then you might have grounds to claim some uniqueness in how your body handles injected testosterone. But something tells me this is too costly and inconvenient for you. This is why we rely on controlled trials, like the one I cited in our previous conversation, which showed consistent, dose-proportionate AOCs for IM and SQ.

 

[HealthMan]

To demonstrate different average serum testosterone for identical dosing you would need to sample your levels frequently enough to accurately estimate the areas under the curves. If you do this a few times and consistently get very different numbers for IM and SQ then you might have grounds to claim some uniqueness in how your body handles injected testosterone. But something tells me this is too costly and inconvenient for you. This is why we rely on controlled trials, like the one I cited in our previous conversation, which showed consistent, dose-proportionate AOCs for IM and SQ.

I do have the grounds Cataceous. I consistently got very different results from IM and Subq but i am not going to keep arguing with you because you are blind and only have eyes to one badly designed study and ignore all the real world data. Again. Lets agree to disagree. It is alright.

For the folks in this forum that see very different testosterone levels or feel different injecting IM vs Subq know it happens to a lot of people. Just stick to the method that works best for you

 

[SkyWarn]

If you go shallow IM in the outside thigh with a 1/2 inch insulin pin do you still need to aspirate? Surely there ar blood vessels I/2 inch deep?