Benefits and drawbacks of daily testosterone dosing protocol, and what's your sweet spot?

[KSPhD]

I feel your pain Blackhawk - I am in the same boat.

 

[Blackhawk]

On first quick read: Study by a small practice in Santa Monica. Seems the author has an in depth comprehensive understanding of TRT.

54 patients included in the study,

All put on Daily subcutaneous T cyp or cyp+enanthate, plus HCG, plus anastrazole

Data based on two labs, beginning and ending, and "The time range between testing dates was 3 to 13 months with an average of 6.7 months" This does not indicate the longer haul.

Ending labs Total T range and rise from hypogonadal starting point were significant

Re: HCT: Page 6 of the PDF, 339 of the copied document:

"The DST therapy method used was not associated with increase in hemoglobin. Higher changes in hemoglobin and hematocrit occur more frequently with IM vs. topical or pellet administration, a trend not observed in our sample (7). Testosterone replacement inhibits hepcidin activity, thereby leading to increased iron absorption and increased erythropoiesis. It is plausible that smaller daily testosterone injections, resembling physiologic secretion, do not affect hepcidin activity to the same degree that is seen with supra-physiologic testosterone level from weekly IM injections. "

This is exactly what I was wondering about, however with long half life of T cyp, "resembling physiologic secretion" seems very unlikely.


"plausible"


Potentially useful info, and encouraging, but not necessarily conclusive based on study size; no control or other comparison to other dosing frequencies. Higher peaks and troughs discussed, but not specifically compared in terms of HCT other than reference to other studies data, not direct comparison but apparently some supposition involved.

Edit: additional quote; "The testosterone was administered via subcutaneous injection using a 30 gauge, 1/2-inch hypodermic needle into the outer thigh, biceps, or gluteal muscles"

Um. I don't think that IM vs SubQ is the most important aspect, more that daily administration is, but LOL, if you're going to call it a study in SubQ admin, should not contradict yourself stating subcutaneous and "into" "muscles" in the same sentence.

 

[ratbag]

Dr. Crisler used to say the same thing when he first started doing SubQ. I'm not sure what his current position is on this. The only possible problem with SubQ is that some people get reactions. Large sore lumps that take days to disappear. I also had bruising around the area for subq. It was yellow and black sometimes and always hurt a little. Yet I had no issues doing IM. For me it made no difference to my E2 or HCT. Lets hope it helps you.

 

[Blackhawk]

I do subQ, it works for me.

 

[Systemlord]

I do subQ, it works for me.

What are the main differences between SQ and IM for you, do you really feel different?

 

[Blackhawk]

What are the main differences between SQ and IM for you, do you really feel different?

This issue is a side track from the topic.

My previous comments about this:

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...-ago-now-I-feel-lightheaded&p=98545#post98545
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?13169-Went-IM-SubQ&p=92878#post92878
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...ns-Injection-depth-and-site&p=92708#post92708
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...ns-Injection-depth-and-site&p=92163#post92163

Cheers.

 

[Blackhawk]

To bring back on track:

OK, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this:

-What is it about less frequent dosing that benefits high SHBG guys? The aspect I question is the idea that lower trough helps to bring down HCT. Less frequent dosing also means higher peaks. Do they not contribute to higher HCT?

-What about more frequent dosing would cause them any issue?

-Would lower stable levels without the peaks and troughs not also help bring down HCT? This seems to be an implication in the daily administration study above.

 

[Vince]

To bring back on track:

OK, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this:

-What is it about less frequent dosing that benefits high SHBG guys? The aspect I question is the idea that lower trough helps to bring down HCT. Less frequent dosing also means higher peaks. Do they not contribute to higher HCT?

-What about more frequent dosing would cause them any issue?

-Would lower stable levels without the peaks and troughs not also help bring down HCT? This seems to be an implication in the daily administration study above.

Does low SHBG require a higher weekly testosterone dosage?
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...G-require-a-higher-weekly-testosterone-dosage

 

[Blackhawk]

Does low SHBG require a higher weekly testosterone dosage?
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...G-require-a-higher-weekly-testosterone-dosage

I thought is was the opposite. (which that thread supports)

However, what I am questioning is whether the supposed wisdom that creating higher peaks and lower troughs for higher SHBG guys is actually beneficial or if lower weekly total dosed daily works just fine. My supposition is that lowering total weekly amount in any case may help lower HCT so why not smooth out peaks and troughs? Are there actual figures regarding this along with the association to men's free T levels?

 

[Ardoc]

I BELIEVE i read something on here from Nelson, that said it was the higher Trough levels that were correlated with higher HCT (not peak or average levels). I cannot find it now. However if that is the case, it wouldn't suggest a mechanism for daily shots resulting in an improvement in HCT as, moving to ED would lower peak values and raise trough values to resemble more of a straight-line steady state.

On a possibly related note??...I am on daily Test Cyp and when I first switched to ED injections, I kept the same weekly dosage. This brought my trough TT from around 800 to about 1300 and doubled my free T. I have since reduced my weekly dose by 15% and will be getting tested soon. I noticed my Hematocrit remained at 50.5 after 4 months of ED injections (without blood donation) when in the past it would have risen closer to 54%. The only things I changed were dose frequency and I added Grapefruit Seed Extract. Were either of these responsible/contributing factors or have I just stabilized over time?? I switched to ED because of very low SHBG and i feel much better since the switch. IF (big IF?) the frequency had any effect on HCT for me, that was just gravy as overcoming low SHBG was my goal.

 

[Blackhawk]

I BELIEVE i read something on here from Nelson, that said it was the higher Trough levels that were correlated with higher HCT (not peak or average levels). I cannot find it now. However if that is the case, it wouldn't suggest a mechanism for daily shots resulting in an improvement in HCT as, moving to ED would lower peak values and raise trough values to resemble more of a straight-line steady state.

On a possibly related note??...I am on daily Test Cyp and when I first switched to ED injections, I kept the same weekly dosage. This brought my trough TT from around 800 to about 1300 and doubled my free T. I have since reduced my weekly dose by 15% and will be getting tested soon. I noticed my Hematocrit remained at 50.5 after 4 months of ED injections (without blood donation) when in the past it would have risen closer to 54%. The only things I changed were dose frequency and I added Grapefruit Seed Extract. Were either of these responsible/contributing factors or have I just stabilized over time?? I switched to ED because of very low SHBG and i feel much better since the switch. IF (big IF?) the frequency had any effect on HCT for me, that was just gravy as overcoming low SHBG was my goal.

Yes, this is what we tend to hear, but anecdotes like your's and Vince's plus the study noted above seem to contradict the wisdom of less frequent shots for lower troughs to bring down HCT. This is what I am researching, would like to find the actual basis for that old wisdom. Where is the hard data on this? Not saying it isn't there, I just have not seen it.

Many things in medicine like the wisdom of Big pharm T being administered every 2 weeks or cutting and sucking to treat snake bite have been disproven. Just searching for truth.

 

[Blackhawk]

Dr. Crisler advocates daily HCG shots for anyone using HCG... I was not referring to Testosterone shots. There are several posts of his on the various forums he visits supporting this.

He does say this about T as well after all!

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?10305&p=68590#post68590 Post #25:

TD's stabilize, at an even daily dose, in 3 days.

QOD shots build to a steady state, for sure.

Variables, for a given weekly dose, and comparing once per week, twice per week, and QOD, include lessening urinary excretion the shorter the injection interval. You also tend to get less estrogen conversion, and less stimulation of RBC production.

I want to know more!