Finding that sweet spot after adding HCG to protocol.

[jdthoosier]

1) I've been on TRT for 3 years. For the most part, I felt OK, not great, like
I was just off the sweet spot.
2) I've noticed increased testicular atrophy and decreased erectional qualities.
3) My protocol for the past 1.5 years has been 80 mg cypionate/week,
split between 2 dosages, Sat PM / Wed AM.
4) My TRT panel (via DiscountedLab) test results in late Jan were (24 hours before next injection,
i.e.,Tuesday AM):


- Total T was 976 ng/dL
- Free T was 16.8 pg/mL
- Estradiol (Sensitve) was 18.0 nmol/L
- DHT was 105 ng/dL
- SHBG was 65.5 nmol/L


5) I had a 2nd blood test (from my PCP) a few weeks ago, who only tests for Total T,
and I did this test on Wed AM prior to my next injection. My trough was in the 820's;
which is consistent with my trough from one year ago (Wed AM prior to injection).
6) All tests were performed between 8 - 8:30am.
7) My PSA, lipids, and liver tests are all good.


I wanted to try HCG to see if I could alleviate the atrophy, so I was prescribed 400IU to
start, 2 weeks ago. I noticed significant improvement in the atrophy and
the erectional qualities, but also noted that I was beginning to feel supraphysiological,
and this past week, after my Wed AM injection, it was particularly bad.


BP shot up, I was very tense/edgy, my neck/forehead felt warm/itchy, and my eyes felt tired/sore.
Just did not feel good at all. This feeling peristed Wed/Thu, started to alleviate Fri, and on Sat
I felt much better, and decided to hold off my next injection until today (Sun). Today I still
had good morning erections and not noticing major degradation with respect to atrophy.


I've done a bit of research in this forum and it seems to me a general rule of thumb is
if your SHBG is on the high side, it might be good to do fewer injections. Furthermore, it
seems I don't need a lot of cypionate maybe compared to a 'norm' to maintain decent troughs.
And historically - I've been someone who cannot tolerate the typical dosage for any
medications, I almost always have to go lower.


To keep HCG in the mix, I am wondering what kind of protocol modifications could be needed to
get some sort of sweet spot. I had been pondering to go to a protocol of every 4 days, something
like 16mg cypionate/250IU of HCG.


Thoughts?

 

[Vince]

I wouldn't change my does of T, your levels you good at 40mg twice a week. Keep a protocol at least 6 week and then do labs. Your E2 if anything is low, I believe most like it above 20 nmol/L .

 

[CoastWatcher]

It's only been two weeks since the start of HCG? Serum levels are in flux, wait at least four weeks, preferably six, test, and evaluate. I know you have already altered your injection schedule...all of which opens the door to confusion. How will you know what is responsible for what? How can you correct what might not be working? One change at a time, frustrating as that might be.

 

[jdthoosier]

OK, OK - I'm not doing this on my own, I am working with someone, I'm trying to better understand how HCG can alter the levels, and what kind of protocol variations are possible.

I forgot to mention that they had me go to 72 mg cypionate/week along with the 400IU.

Believe me, after lurking on this for a forum for a while, and I know jumping around on the protocol frequently is frowned on.

So - is it normal to feel all these reactions - higher BP / flushed/itchy/warm feelings in the forehead and neck, sore/tired eyes, being on edge/tense after adding HCG? And, what kind of impact could HCG have on your levels? I've read that for some guys, it could raise their total T trough by 200/300, which if true in my case, not something I can tolerate.

At one time, in order to try to lower SHBG, I was asked to go to 120 mg/cypionate a week and I could not tolerate it.
I the exact same symptoms as I did this week. I stuck with it and we found that total T trough was in the 1100's. Eventually I was directed to go back down to 80mg/week. That's why I think I went supra physiological.

 

[johndoesmith]

OK, OK - I'm not doing this on my own, I am working with someone, I'm trying to better understand how HCG can alter the levels, and what kind of protocol variations are possible.

I forgot to mention that they had me go to 72 mg cypionate/week along with the 400IU.

Believe me, after lurking on this for a forum for a while, and I know jumping around on the protocol frequently is frowned on.

So - is it normal to feel all these reactions - higher BP / flushed/itchy/warm feelings in the forehead and neck, sore/tired eyes, being on edge/tense after adding HCG? And, what kind of impact could HCG have on your levels? I've read that for some guys, it could raise their total T trough by 200/300, which if true in my case, not something I can tolerate.

At one time, in order to try to lower SHBG, I was asked to go to 120 mg/cypionate a week and I could not tolerate it.
I the exact same symptoms as I did this week. I stuck with it and we found that total T trough was in the 1100's. Eventually I was directed to go back down to 80mg/week. That's why I think I went supra physiological.

Probably E2 related.

Do you have any labs from before TRT? Preferably with LH and FSH.

Depending on how much hCG increased your testosterone levels, it's entirely possible the increase in testosterone is resulting in more E2 than you're used to, hence causing the anxiety, hot flashes, and negative feelings.

Btw, discounted labs wouldn't give a result for E2 in pmol/l, it would be pg/ml. This is why it's best to post the actual results in the form of a screenshot.

 

[HarryCat]

I've found I tolerate HCG better injecting 100IU daily rather than 350IU twice per week, even though the total weekly dose is the same.

 

[Vince]

I've always used 500iu of HCG twice weekly, it works great for me.

 

[jdthoosier]

Below are my test results @ 80mg/week, prior to starting HCG. The one time we tried a higher dose of cypionate to try and lower SHBg (Fall 2015), my trough hit 1224 total T, my estradiol (sensitive) hit 49.2, and my free T was 23.0. We did not measure SHBG that time. I was on this protocol for about 4 weeks before the next measurement. I feel exactly the same symptoms now after adding 400IU of HCG. I feel OK for the first 2 weeks, but as the levels just keep rising, things turn around and I gradually begin to experience the symptoms.

If I use more than 80mg/cypionate weekly, my troughs gradually increase. At 80mg they seem to stabilize.

Vince - no way I could tolerate 500IU 2x a week.

Harry - that is interesting. But a daily injection? That has to get tiring to maintain.

Is it possible for the half-life of cypionate/HCG to vary from one to person to another based on their amount of body fat, weight, etc. I'm injecting into the glutes, but it's getting a little harder to find fat there because I've leaned out so much.