Alcohol Consumption and TRT/HCG

[ef88]

Hello all. I'm sure of you have been on TRT for a while and still enjoy yourselves a sip of whiskey, glass of wine or a nice IPA.

I want to do this right. I didn't decide to get on trt and hcg and kill it with alcohol/bad eating. I'm already an avid exerciser and eat very healthy. I'm not overweight either.

If I'm at a get together. Mother's day. Family trip somewhere, etc....What are the negative effects of alcohol other than spiking our estradiol?

Can I have 3 or 4 beers in a night? Can I share a bottle of wine with my gf here and there? There are times where I won't drink for weeks....other times where the guys and I have 4 or 5 heavy beers and eat pizza.

 

[DixieWrecked]

What you are describing is probably a net positive on your health. Not being able to enjoy yourself, loosen up and have a good time every once in a while is bad for you.

Doing this all the time, no bueno.

 

[ef88]

So just don’t get stupid all the time, got it lol

a few beers here and there is fine with me

 

[S1W]

Hello all. I'm sure of you have been on TRT for a while and still enjoy yourselves a sip of whiskey, glass of wine or a nice IPA.

I want to do this right. I didn't decide to get on trt and hcg and kill it with alcohol/bad eating. I'm already an avid exerciser and eat very healthy. I'm not overweight either.

If I'm at a get together. Mother's day. Family trip somewhere, etc....What are the negative effects of alcohol other than spiking our estradiol?

Can I have 3 or 4 beers in a night? Can I share a bottle of wine with my gf here and there? There are times where I won't drink for weeks....other times where the guys and I have 4 or 5 heavy beers and eat pizza.

Totally fine. Been doing it for years.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Yeah man. What's the point of being optimized if you can't have fun. I work hard in the gym and eat right so I can enjoy myself more ALL the time

 

[jmjmjm]

Hello all. I'm sure of you have been on TRT for a while and still enjoy yourselves a sip of whiskey, glass of wine or a nice IPA.

I want to do this right. I didn't decide to get on trt and hcg and kill it with alcohol/bad eating. I'm already an avid exerciser and eat very healthy. I'm not overweight either.

If I'm at a get together. Mother's day. Family trip somewhere, etc....What are the negative effects of alcohol other than spiking our estradiol?

Can I have 3 or 4 beers in a night? Can I share a bottle of wine with my gf here and there? There are times where I won't drink for weeks....other times where the guys and I have 4 or 5 heavy beers and eat

 

[ironlegal]

Moderation is the key. They are empty calories (the one arguable exception could be red wine, depending on the study you read). Sounds like you have a healthy approach to things. I try to stick to the principle of ”one and done“ in most situations, but there are exceptions. Too much alcohol, for me, disturbs my sleep, especially if right before bedtime. So I try to avoid having that happen and have self-imposed limits.

 

[Smokey]

Just eat lite during the day, end it with several drinks to the point you are having fun (I stay with unpasteurized beer for health benefits) and then eat a big meal, go to bed and start all over. I do this and stay lean at 49

 

[Shkurka]

Hi, if you drink once a week and at the same time in small quantities, I don't think it can somehow affect your health.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Oh oh !

Myth Busting: No, Red Wine Isn’t Good for Your Heart

Cardiologist Christopher Labos speaks about red wine and health misconceptions.

www.medscape.com

 

[Steve78]

Oh oh !

Myth Busting: No, Red Wine Isn’t Good for Your Heart

Cardiologist Christopher Labos speaks about red wine and health misconceptions.

www.medscape.com

Yes, alcohol can increase some cancer rates, particularly some relatively rare ones a little bit, like esophageal or head-and-neck cancers. But you have to drink a lot for any significant increased risk and/or also smoke and/or possess the ALDH2*2 allele, which is rare in those of European heritage.

Hot tea is similarly carcinogenic, causing esophageal cancer. Let’s put out advisories against consuming it?

Black pepper contains safrole, classified as a potential carcinogen. Chili-type peppers have capsaicin, another carcinogenic compound. And, indeed, epidemiological studies link high pepper consumption to stomach and liver cancer. So we need to label pepper as a carcinogen too?

But if you believe the epidemiological studies linking alcohol to some slightly-increased cancer rates—and you should—then you also have to believe the similar studies that indicate that alcohol has very large protective effects against CardioVascular Disease—our number-one killer. And to appreciate the difference between RELATIVE rate increases and ABSOLUTE rate increases. A small difference in a small risk pales next to a very big improvement (generally about 30%) in a very big risk, CVD.

Plus, in addition, modest alcohol consumption has been shown to significantly lower:

- Diabetes risk (see, e.g., PMID 28748324, 26458258, & 37890103);

- Kidney disease (see, e.g., PMID 38968463);

- Dementia (see, e.g., PMID 19546653, 39038743, 30611304, and 32597992);

- Autoimmune diseases (see, e.g., PMID 39859557), and so,

- All-Cause Mortality (see, e.g., PMID 28331015, 34311738, and 21343207).

You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater simply whenever somebody cries “cancer!”

 

[Steve78]

Yes, alcohol can increase some cancer rates, particularly some relatively rare ones a little bit, like esophageal or head-and-neck cancers. But you have to drink a lot for any significant increased risk and/or also smoke and/or possess the ALDH2*2 allele, which is rare in those of European heritage.

Hot tea is similarly carcinogenic, causing esophageal cancer. Let’s put out advisories against consuming it?

Black pepper contains safrole, classified as a potential carcinogen. Chili-type peppers have capsaicin, another carcinogenic compound. And, indeed, epidemiological studies link high pepper consumption to stomach and liver cancer. So we need to label pepper as a carcinogen too?

But if you believe the epidemiological studies linking alcohol to some slightly-increased cancer rates—and you should—then you also have to believe the similar studies that indicate that alcohol has very large protective effects against CardioVascular Disease—our number-one killer. And to appreciate the difference between RELATIVE rate increases and ABSOLUTE rate increases. A small difference in a small risk pales next to a very big improvement (generally about 30%) in a very big risk, CVD.

Plus, in addition, modest alcohol consumption has been shown to significantly lower:

- Diabetes risk (see, e.g., PMID 28748324, 26458258, & 37890103);

- Kidney disease (see, e.g., PMID 38968463);

- Dementia (see, e.g., PMID 19546653, 39038743, 30611304, and 32597992);

- Autoimmune diseases (see, e.g., PMID 39859557), and so,

- All-Cause Mortality (see, e.g., PMID 28331015, 34311738, and 21343207).

You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater simply whenever somebody cries “cancer!”

Take a look at Figure 1 of PMID 34311738 on secondary-prevention in such CVD patients in the UK Biobank at:

Association of alcohol consumption with morbidity and mortality in patients with cardiovascular disease: original data and meta-analysis of 48,423 men and women - BMC Medicine

Compared to never-drinkers & former-drinkers, the low-level & medium-level drinkers had about 30% fewer second CVD events, 40% lower CVD mortality, and 30% lower all-cause mortality. Wow. Do you want to deny your patients that?

This mirrors the kind of risk-reduction observed in larger studies of primary prevention. See, e.g., Figures 2, 3, & 4 in PMID 28331015, with almost 2,000,000 Brits, at:

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/356/bmj.j909.full.pdf

There the lifelong “non-drinkers” had 32% more heart attacks compared to the “moderate drinkers.” And 24% higher All-Cause mortality.

And for more on outcomes with starting alcohol consumption later in life, see “Adopting Moderate Alcohol Consumption in Middle-age: Subsequent Cardiovascular Events,” PMID 18328303 at:

Preparing to download ...

where the “new moderate drinkers” had a 38% lower chance of developing cardiovascular disease than did their persistently non-drinking counterparts.” Wow.

See also PMID 22011558 and 20876712.

 

[Phil Goodman]

I’m kind of skeptical with regard to studies that try to paint alcohol in a positive light, but also ones that try to make it seem extremely toxic. There’s not really a great way to test it, and there could be many other factors contributing to the positive outcomes they pin on moderate alcohol use. And that’s before getting into the issues of how different people are and the addictive aspects of it.

Just from a biological standpoint though alcohol is poison. So much so, that when it hits the blood the liver directs all its attention to removing it from the body. I think that says a lot. Sure, there may be some positives that go along with it, but I think it’s hard to make a case for it being an overall net positive. And I say this as someone who drinks somewhat regularly. I’ve gone through phases where I drank heavily and also periods of not drinking at all. Overall I obviously feel better when I don’t drink at all, but it is good to indulge so I think the main thing is finding the balancing act that works for you personally if you are going to indulge. For me, my rule of thumb is that I don’t drink on days when I have to work the next day and I try to wait until after five to start. There are also things I do to try and minimize the negative effects. A big one is taking N-Acetyl-Cysteine before bed if drinking(and I actually take it before bed most nights anyway). And if I get a little excessive(which is pretty rare these days) I might take some extra vitamins the following day, particularly extra vitamin d.

So even though I’m someone who does enjoy drinking 1-2 days/week most of the time, I still recognize that it’s probably a net negative on my health. But just like with everything else, the key is to try and maximize any positives while minimizing the negatives.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

While I would never recommend drinking in large amounts, or in any amount for someone who does not have a good relationship with alcohol, there are three big problems with the anti-alcohol push.

First, the observational studies have grouped heavy drinkers in with light social drinkers. I have not seen a study that looked at people in the 2-4 drinks per week category. These people are usually grouped in with heavier drinkers. Even one drink a day (7 per week) is heavy drinking for many of us.

Second, there are likely a subset of light drinkers who combine social activity and drinking (e.g. stopping by the neighborhood bar and grill.) Something that gets almost no attention in the health world is that one of the strongest predictors (and likely causual factors ) in a long happy life is social connection. The link is strong enough that even if there was a mild downside to alcohol, it could easily be more than offset by the social benefits.

Third, social venues (and in the US, particularly live music) have been in decline since Covid and also due to creeping gentrification, so anything that reduces the viability of social venues has a major indirect negative affect.

 

[Steve78]

I’m kind of skeptical with regard to studies that try to paint alcohol in a positive light, but also ones that try to make it seem extremely toxic. There’s not really a great way to test it, and there could be many other factors contributing to the positive outcomes they pin on moderate alcohol use. And that’s before getting into the issues of how different people are and the addictive aspects of it.

Just from a biological standpoint though alcohol is poison. So much so, that when it hits the blood the liver directs all its attention to removing it from the body. I think that says a lot. Sure, there may be some positives that go along with it, but I think it’s hard to make a case for it being an overall net positive. And I say this as someone who drinks somewhat regularly. I’ve gone through phases where I drank heavily and also periods of not drinking at all. Overall I obviously feel better when I don’t drink at all, but it is good to indulge so I think the main thing is finding the balancing act that works for you personally if you are going to indulge. For me, my rule of thumb is that I don’t drink on days when I have to work the next day and I try to wait until after five to start. There are also things I do to try and minimize the negative effects. A big one is taking N-Acetyl-Cysteine before bed if drinking(and I actually take it before bed most nights anyway). And if I get a little excessive(which is pretty rare these days) I might take some extra vitamins the following day, particularly extra vitamin d.

So even though I’m someone who does enjoy drinking 1-2 days/week most of the time, I still recognize that it’s probably a net negative on my health. But just like with everything else, the key is to try and maximize any positives while minimizing the negatives.

It is unfortunate that the misinformation campaign about alcohol, and wine in particular, continues to be perpetuated. To wit: The evidence that alcohol can cause cancer is not at all clear as a general conclusion, only true for more than moderate consumption, and only for some types of cancer. Alcohol is an insignificant carcinogen in itself, is is the metabolite acetaldehyde which occurs in a variety of fermented foods and is "generally regarded as safe" by the FDA. The meta-analysis so often referenced is by Stockwell et al, who along with his co-authors have extensive ties to anti-alcohol lobby groups. (To quote from the article: daily low or moderate alcohol intake was not significantly associated with all-cause mortality risk” - not a statement supporting the "no alcohol is safe" mantra even in this biased review. Heterogeneity of studies showing a benefit to moderate consumption is a strength not a weakness when they all show a similar result, and does not support either conclusion when they don't. The evidence that wine consumption is beneficial to overall health and longevity, especially as an independent component of the Mediterranean Diet, is well-established. Not to mention quality of life measures (well-documented), better cognitive health with age (consistently documented), etc. etc.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I’m kind of skeptical with regard to studies that try to paint alcohol in a positive light, but also ones that try to make it seem extremely toxic. There’s not really a great way to test it, and there could be many other factors contributing to the positive outcomes they pin on moderate alcohol use. And that’s before getting into the issues of how different people are and the addictive aspects of it.

Just from a biological standpoint though alcohol is poison. So much so, that when it hits the blood the liver directs all its attention to removing it from the body. I think that says a lot. Sure, there may be some positives that go along with it, but I think it’s hard to make a case for it being an overall net positive. And I say this as someone who drinks somewhat regularly. I’ve gone through phases where I drank heavily and also periods of not drinking at all. Overall I obviously feel better when I don’t drink at all, but it is good to indulge so I think the main thing is finding the balancing act that works for you personally if you are going to indulge. For me, my rule of thumb is that I don’t drink on days when I have to work the next day and I try to wait until after five to start. There are also things I do to try and minimize the negative effects. A big one is taking N-Acetyl-Cysteine before bed if drinking(and I actually take it before bed most nights anyway). And if I get a little excessive(which is pretty rare these days) I might take some extra vitamins the following day, particularly extra vitamin d.

So even though I’m someone who does enjoy drinking 1-2 days/week most of the time, I still recognize that it’s probably a net negative on my health. But just like with everything else, the key is to try and maximize any positives while minimizing the negatives.

DHM (dihydromyricetin) is an amazing compound and among other things aids in metabolizing alcohol.

 

[Phil Goodman]

While I would never recommend drinking in large amounts, or in any amount for someone who does not have a good relationship with alcohol, there are three big problems with the anti-alcohol push.

First, the observational studies have grouped heavy drinkers in with light social drinkers. I have not seen a study that looked at people in the 2-4 drinks per week category. These people are usually grouped in with heavier drinkers. Even one drink a day (7 per week) is heavy drinking for many of us.

Second, there are likely a subset of light drinkers who combine social activity and drinking (e.g. stopping by the neighborhood bar and grill.) Something that gets almost no attention in the health world is that one of the strongest predictors (and likely causual factors ) in a long happy life is social connection. The link is strong enough that even if there was a mild downside to alcohol, it could easily be more than offset by the social benefits.

Third, social venues (and in the US, particularly live music) have been in decline since Covid and also due to creeping gentrification, so anything that reduces the viability of social venues has a major indirect negative affect.

That’s a great point about the social aspects, and one that I’ve seen affect people but for some reason never thought about it so clearly in this regard. I’ve known people who stop drinking and then end up missing out on social events because they think it’ll be awkward if they aren’t drinking, or that they’ll be too tempted to drink and break their sobriety. And as you point out social relationships are very important for overall health. Like so many other things it comes down to the individual, so if someone who doesn’t have a lot of problems with alcohol is missing out on bonding opportunities it would be detrimental in that aspect… whereas for the guy who would end up going off the rails at the party it’s probably best to avoid the gathering and find other ways to establish those connections.


And good point about the studies, we’ve all seen some poorly structured studies that seem designed to paint a very specific picture. Like I said though I think some of the ones speaking about the positives of alcohol can be structured poorly as well. Or maybe pull out one positive aspect but don’t factor in any of the negatives that went along with it.



One thing I can say for sure though, almost without fail when I drink I’m extra horny the next day lol. Not sure if that’s just a hormonal thing or what, but it’s a very consistent phenomenon.

 

[Phil Goodman]

It is unfortunate that the misinformation campaign about alcohol, and wine in particular, continues to be perpetuated. To wit: The evidence that alcohol can cause cancer is not at all clear as a general conclusion, only true for more than moderate consumption, and only for some types of cancer. Alcohol is an insignificant carcinogen in itself, is is the metabolite acetaldehyde which occurs in a variety of fermented foods and is "generally regarded as safe" by the FDA. The meta-analysis so often referenced is by Stockwell et al, who along with his co-authors have extensive ties to anti-alcohol lobby groups. (To quote from the article: daily low or moderate alcohol intake was not significantly associated with all-cause mortality risk” - not a statement supporting the "no alcohol is safe" mantra even in this biased review. Heterogeneity of studies showing a benefit to moderate consumption is a strength not a weakness when they all show a similar result, and does not support either conclusion when they don't. The evidence that wine consumption is beneficial to overall health and longevity, especially as an independent component of the Mediterranean Diet, is well-established. Not to mention quality of life measures (well-documented), better cognitive health with age (consistently documented), etc. etc.

Do you links to the studies which show alcohol can lead to better cognitive health?


From what I’ve seen it negatively impacts brain health and cognition, and I certainly experience it myself(one of the reasons I try to avoid it if I have to work the next day). It also causes inflammation, and as I said it is clearly a toxin as far as the liver is concerned… as evidenced by the fact that when it hits the blood it becomes “all hands on deck” to remove it from the body. It has negative effects on the gut microbiome as well, or at least it can. As far as the increase in cancer risk, that is true for some types and I’d imagine the amount of increase seen depends on amount of intake as well as genetics.

So overall I’d say it’s hard to make a case for it being a net positive for the vast majority of people. And again I say this as someone who drinks 1-2 times/week… hell, I had 3 glasses of wine last night.

 

[Steve78]

Do you links to the studies which show alcohol can lead to better cognitive health?


From what I’ve seen it negatively impacts brain health and cognition, and I certainly experience it myself(one of the reasons I try to avoid it if I have to work the next day). It also causes inflammation, and as I said it is clearly a toxin as far as the liver is concerned… as evidenced by the fact that when it hits the blood it becomes “all hands on deck” to remove it from the body. It has negative effects on the gut microbiome as well, or at least it can. As far as the increase in cancer risk, that is true for some types and I’d imagine the amount of increase seen depends on amount of intake as well as genetics.

So overall I’d say it’s hard to make a case for it being a net positive for the vast majority of people. And again I say this as someone who drinks 1-2 times/week… hell, I had 3 glasses of wine last night.

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/20/3431#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20flavanols%20in%20red%20wine,36%2C37%2C38%5D.