Addiction and TRT - Benzodiazepine effects on testosterone.

[TransitPoloce]

Anyone here have experience of Drug/Alcohol Addiction while on TRT?

I was always a very anxious person in social situations since my teenage years.

I'm 31 now and more or less grown out of my anxiety issues.

Over the years I was prescribed benzodiazepines many times and eventually became dependant on them daily.

I'm currently tapering off them slowly, but it's a long process and can take 6-12 months at my current dose.

I was tempted to wait until getting off all medication completely before beginning TRT to see what effect that would have on Test levels - but decided I'd rather not wait any longer.

I've known since I was 20 my Test levels were very low, but never pursued TRT until recently.

TRT so far seems to help with anxiety symptoms and the benzo withdrawal symptoms.

Does anyone have experience with TRT while dealing with addiction or withdrawing from prescription medicines?

 

[johndoesmith]

Anyone here have experience of Drug/Alcohol Addiction while on TRT?

I was always a very anxious person in social situations since my teenage years.

I'm 31 now and more or less grown out of my anxiety issues.

Over the years I was prescribed benzodiazepines many times and eventually became dependant on them daily.

I'm currently tapering off them slowly, but it's a long process and can take 6-12 months at my current dose.

I was tempted to wait until getting off all medication completely before beginning TRT to see what effect that would have on Test levels - but decided I'd rather not wait any longer.

I've known since I was 20 my Test levels were very low, but never pursued TRT until recently.

TRT so far seems to help with anxiety symptoms and the benzo withdrawal symptoms.

Does anyone have experience with TRT while dealing with addiction or withdrawing from prescription medicines?

Dependence! = addiction.

Medical use of a substance is not the same as uncontrollably consuming more and more to achieve a high. If that was the case then all TRT patients need to be in rehab.

That being said benzoate dependence is probably the worst of all to go through. I can see how TRT would help.

I believe several neurosteroids have positive allosteric modulator properties which may help but when it comes to something as serious as benzoate withdrawal I'd check with the treating doctor.

 

[TransitPoloce]

Dependence! = addiction.

Medical use of a substance is not the same as uncontrollably consuming more and more to achieve a high. If that was the case then all TRT patients need to be in rehab.

That being said benzoate dependence is probably the worst of all to go through. I can see how TRT would help.

I believe several neurosteroids have positive allosteric modulator properties which may help but when it comes to something as serious as benzoate withdrawal I'd check with the treating doctor.

@johndoe It's a bit off topic so please excuse the following rant, but it's something I feel strongly about

I guess it's just semantics. Dependence is often the same thing as addiction, but not always. I also don't think most drug addicts should ever go near a rehab for many reasons not relevant to the discussion here.

A TRT user is dependent on exogenous testosterone if they want to keep normal healthy Test levels, but they're not physically / psychologically addicted to the substance.

There's millions of prescription drug users that don't abuse their medication and are dependent on these drugs to function. They are physically and likely psychologically dependent on the substance. I don't distinguish between them and a drug addict. The intent is irrelevant to how they got there in my opinion.

The language around illicit drug use has been so muddied over the years due to failed government policy that anything that even implies illicit/recreational drug use has negative connotations. On top of the puritanical Christian view that anything pleasurable is wicked and we're left with imprecise terms like 'drugs' to describe 1000 different things.

A drug addict is associated with a junky lying in a gutter or someone mugging people for their next hit. This is a tiny fraction of what makes up 'drug addicts' in any society. I'd bet most drug addicts are on legitimate Dr Prescribed medication, with normal jobs and no outward signs of drug use.

A 60 year old grandmother dependent on her long term Dr. prescribed sleep medication (a drug!) is 100% physically addicted to the substance as much as someone using it recreationally to get high (or maybe just sleep themselves).
Society just doesn't like to call her a 'drug addict'. What if she enjoys the feeling and increases the dose occasionally without asking her Dr? Is she now a drug addict? The lines can get blurry..

What's the difference between an opiate/benzo user on their Dr. prescribed medication - than a self medicating user taking the exact same substance, for the exact same trauma (be it physical or psychological), at the same dose. They will both develop physical dependence to the drug over time, both experience issues with tolerance if they don't increase the dose, and both experience severe withdrawal symptoms if they try and stop suddenly. They are both drug addicts.

(Rant over!)

-----

Re checking with treating doctor:

Sadly, asking a Dr. about a proper benzodiazepine taper is like asking a random Dr about an optimal TRT protocol - the average level of advice will range from useless to downright dangerous. In the case of Benzo's it can even be deadly (sudden cessations causes seizures, much like alcohol withdrawal) Yes, Doctor's have given me this advice.

I'm more interested if anyone here has dealt with a substance addiction and how it affected their TRT treatment, specifically Benzodiazepines.
Was TRT helpful?
Did they wait until getting off of medication before beginning TRT?
Any common wisdom about combining the two?

(Benzoate != benzodiazepine btw)

 

[Vince]

I would worry about starting TRT when trying to get off benzos. You definitely need a doctors help to get off benzos, too many people die trying to do it alone.

 

[Vince]

If u haven't taken a Benzo before and your doctor offers you them tell him/her to stick that s*** right up their medical a**.

 

[TransitPoloce]

I would worry about starting TRT when trying to get off benzos.

Hi Vince,

What would be your main worries about someone starting TRT while they are tapering off of benzo's?

It wasn't a decision I took lightly - although looking back I wish I gave it some more thought.

My main concern is adding Testosterone is introducing more variables while tapering and it will make things difficult to distinguish what is causing certain symptoms if they do arise.

You definitely need a doctors help to get off benzos, too many people die trying to do it alone.

I've found it's similar to TRT - you need to take the information to a Dr and educate them on how to taper from benzo's until you find one willing to treat you. On average a random Dr will cause far more harm than good for someone trying to taper off of benzo's.

A typical rehab for example will often 'detox' a benzo user rapidly like any other drug. Causing far more long term harm as the 28 day rehab model that insurance companies will cover doesn't have time to treat them correctly.

Agree that alone isn't the answer - ideally a good support group - online or real life, an understanding counsellor and if you're lucky a GP that has a clue will give you a better chance of success.

 

[green2145]

I've never been on benzos but I've been on opiates for several years for back issues.Are you saying the drugs effected your testosterone levels?

 

[johndoesmith]

@johndoe It's a bit off topic so please excuse the following rant, but it's something I feel strongly about

I guess it's just semantics. Dependence is often the same thing as addiction, but not always. I also don't think most drug addicts should ever go near a rehab for many reasons not relevant to the discussion here.

A TRT user is dependent on exogenous testosterone if they want to keep normal healthy Test levels, but they're not physically / psychologically addicted to the substance.

There's millions of prescription drug users that don't abuse their medication and are dependent on these drugs to function. They are physically and likely psychologically dependent on the substance. I don't distinguish between them and a drug addict. The intent is irrelevant to how they got there in my opinion.

The language around illicit drug use has been so muddied over the years due to failed government policy that anything that even implies illicit/recreational drug use has negative connotations. On top of the puritanical Christian view that anything pleasurable is wicked and we're left with imprecise terms like 'drugs' to describe 1000 different things.

A drug addict is associated with a junky lying in a gutter or someone mugging people for their next hit. This is a tiny fraction of what makes up 'drug addicts' in any society. I'd bet most drug addicts are on legitimate Dr Prescribed medication, with normal jobs and no outward signs of drug use.

A 60 year old grandmother dependent on her long term Dr. prescribed sleep medication (a drug!) is 100% physically addicted to the substance as much as someone using it recreationally to get high (or maybe just sleep themselves).
Society just doesn't like to call her a 'drug addict'. What if she enjoys the feeling and increases the dose occasionally without asking her Dr? Is she now a drug addict? The lines can get blurry..

What's the difference between an opiate/benzo user on their Dr. prescribed medication - than a self medicating user taking the exact same substance, for the exact same trauma (be it physical or psychological), at the same dose. They will both develop physical dependence to the drug over time, both experience issues with tolerance if they don't increase the dose, and both experience severe withdrawal symptoms if they try and stop suddenly. They are both drug addicts.

(Rant over!)

-----

Re checking with treating doctor:

Sadly, asking a Dr. about a proper benzodiazepine taper is like asking a random Dr about an optimal TRT protocol - the average level of advice will range from useless to downright dangerous. In the case of Benzo's it can even be deadly (sudden cessations causes seizures, much like alcohol withdrawal) Yes, Doctor's have given me this advice.

I'm more interested if anyone here has dealt with a substance addiction and how it affected their TRT treatment, specifically Benzodiazepines.
Was TRT helpful?
Did they wait until getting off of medication before beginning TRT?
Any common wisdom about combining the two?

(Benzoate != benzodiazepine btw)

You would be incorrect on a lot of things. Addiction is the compulsion to use more and more of the drug to achieve a high, in spite of negative consequences to your life, such as work performance, social relationships, financially, and even health wise.

Dependence is a separate, but yet related thing. Basically it means tolerance and withdrawal. You can be dependant without being addicted. A diabetic is not addicted to insulin or metformin.

The difference between a patient with a doctor diagnosed disorder who is prescribed psychotropic drug that goes on to develop dependence is not necessarily addicted, and the intent is NOT the same as a recreational user who does NOT have a diagnosed medical disorder.

The intent of doctor prescribed medication is to IMPROVE the patient's life, to correct a "handicap" so to speak, and not to allow the patient access to as much as they can afford and want.

Do you consider a patient who is physically dependent on say beta blockers an "addict"? Why/why not? Where is your line for what's considered to be an addictive substance? There are many, many drugs that cause dependence but have zero recreational use. Corticosteroids are one, that can be life threatening if discontinued without a taper. Was JFK a drug addict?

Btw, my smartphone corrected "benzo" to "benzoate" lol. forgive me. Interesting conversation.

Sorry to hear that doctors are uninformed on benzo tapering. I understand exactly how critical it is to do so properly.

 

[Vince]

Some doctors are just drug dealers. Yes they'll affect your testosterone levels when not on TRT.

 

[CoastWatcher]

I've never been on benzos but I've been on opiates for several years for back issues.Are you saying the drugs effected your testosterone levels?

It has been well established that opiates have a negative impact on endogenous androgen levels.

 

[zojo360]

I have experience with addiction. This is a complex subject with many different viewpoints as you can see. I am a recovering opiate addict after 10+ years on pain pills then methadone and at the end, suboxone. After this came 2 years of benzo addiction that were initially prescribed to help alleviate post acute withdrawals from the opiates. What a nightmare. I said absolutely NO MORE MADNESS and quit klonopin and lexapro cold turkey. It was extremely difficult yet what carried through was nothing more than sheer determination to change my life. IT WAS HARD!!

The opiates did the damage to my testosterone levels that have been proved time and time again. Benzodiazepines could affect hormone levels as with any foreign substance in your body could. Benzodiazepines do the most damage to your GABA receptors.

Im not sure how long you've been on benzodiazepines or the amounts but if your tapering, switch to Valium due to it's long half life. Do what's best for you at your pace but you must stay dedicated. I personally just wanted out so cold turkey is what I had to do.

I waited till all the garbage was out of my system before starting TRT so I could be in a better frame of health all around in order to give TRT my absolute best. Becoming clean then starting TRT has absolutely changed my life in ways I never thought possible. Attitude, devotion, the WILL to change and patience is crucial. Everyone is different.

Best of luck my friend...

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Good info:

MY BENZO EXPERIENCE: What it Feels Like to Take a Benzodiazepine for Anxiety
Low T & Opiates


Low T & Opiates - Page 2


Opiate abuse and testosterone deficiency


Opiate Recovery And The Effects On Sexual Performance

 

[TransitPoloce]

Hey thanks for the replies here everyone, and the PM's.

I waited till all the garbage was out of my system before starting TRT so I could be in a better frame of health all around in order to give TRT my absolute best. Becoming clean then starting TRT has absolutely changed my life in ways I never thought possible. Attitude, devotion, the WILL to change and patience is crucial. Everyone is different.

Awesome to hear your story Zojo, you seem to be in a good spot now. I'm lucky I never enjoyed opiates - benzo's on the other hand feel euphoric for me simply because of the anxiety relief, even at low doses.

Understandable wanting to cold turkey just to get off them, curious if you had seizures from that. I've been on klonopin long enough at a considerable dose that a slow taper is the way I'm going. I get very few side effects when I do it slowly and stick to it. I find water titration with tiny daily reductions very easy to manage.
I'll likely switch to diazepam when I get to the later stages (equivalent diazepam dose would make me a zombie), but I'm familiar with Ashton Manuel and suggested tapering methods, even if it is a bit dated.

 

[belightful]

a true life decision! it took me 1 year to taper off and another 6 months to recover

 

[zojo360]

Transit-

I never did have any seizures although I felt as if I was going to at any moment. The fear, anxiety, sleeplessness, body ticks, lights and sounds when there were none, and essentially feeling like a strung out cat hanging from a ceiling were problematic for about 3 months. I could not work, function, be productive and pretty much locked myself in my house. This is no joke and not to be taken lightly. I'm not trying to discourage you but please prepare yourself for battle. I will tell you to eat as healthy as possible, drink water, sleep WHENEVER you can, listen to your body and stay focused. Address your family and friends as to what is happening so they understand and support you. Time is what heals.

Draw on all your strengths. Once its done and finished, there is nothing you cant do!!

 

[Roccc]

Try pregnenolone.

 

[burnoutat42]

Good info:

MY BENZO EXPERIENCE: What it Feels Like to Take a Benzodiazepine for Anxiety
Low T & Opiates

Low T & OpiatesOpiates



Low T & Opiates - Page 2

Low T & Opiates...Opiates/...



Opiate abuse and testosterone deficiency

Opiate abuse and testosterone deficiencyOpiate-abuse...


Opiate Recovery And The Effects On Sexual Performance

Opiate Recovery And The Effects On Sexual PerformanceOpiate...And...

Not only was I taking 1.5 mg to 2 mg of Klonopin daily.. but additionally taking 3 to 4 10 mg Lortabs everyday for over 10 years! I'm going to get all of my testing done via Discountedlabs.com and use the 10% off promo code found on this site!

I'm no longer on any RX drugs however still feel miserable! Thanks for the above info I really appreciate it brother!

 

[Tgrappler]

i'm going through the same thing exactly, pretty much. i am quite new to TRT so still trying to figure out a lot of things. please take this with a pound of salt. (i'm 39 yo for reference).

first, i think my doctor is quite good (i've seen dozens over the years and finally found one i can trust). he himself was on ativan and getting off was one of the most horrific experiences in his life. so at least based on that i understand that he shares some of the pain that i'm going through. also he is on the TRT protocol himself and for 60+ yo guy looks quite great.

before i started the protocol about 3 months ago i was ridden with anxiety, panic and all the "good stuff" that comes from klonopin withdrawal. wound up hospitalized more than once, over many years of trying to kick this horrible drug. the doctor was adamant that TRT can help me to cope with the feelings of hopelessness and strong panic. indeed my T numbers were extremely low e2, of course, pretty high. taking AI (total of 16 pills, 1mg/each over about 2 months) seemed to help a lot.

for the first few weeks i didn't feel much of anything but around 2 week mark i noticed a remarkable improvement in my state of being. i went from being unable to drive because of anxiety to finally feeling normal, laughing and having sex with wife non-stop. for 3 months i found some internal base-level of support, which allowed me to do things i didn't think i'd ever be able to enjoy again.

unfortunately as i was running out of my first batch of cream i didn't get the labs done in time and completely unrelated came down with a bad flu. so i ran out of cream and noticed slowly, but surely over the course of a few weeks i started slipping into a deep depression and very similar panic to what i was feeling prior to TRT. by the time i got my labs done (which is about 10 - 12 days) after I ran out of creams, my numbers were lower than before I started. anxiety and insomnia came back with a vengeance. (i have not changed my benzo dose during this time).

my doc was able to get me another batch ordered pretty much the same day. now i'm 2.5 weeks into my second batch and for a while i felt good. my baseline has lifted again, but i'm still dealing with insomnia, panic and anxiety. my doc says i have to wait until my e2 gets under control again. and even though i have some pretty good days, where i experience very little anxiety ... for the last week or so pretty much every little event can set me off into becoming a crying scared "little kid" (or senile old man).

so that's my story of the last few months of TRT and benzos. overall i found hope because after 10 years of various anti depressants, benzos and self-medication there is something in my life that actually makes a dent in this twisted up world of emotions and nutty feelings. today i just hope that i can stabilize again where i can get some decent sleep and stop falling into panic and isolation every time i think about some challenge.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Not only was I taking 1.5 mg to 2 mg of Klonopin daily.. but additionally taking 3 to 4 10 mg Lortabs everyday for over 10 years! I'm going to get all of my testing done via Discountedlabs.com and use the 10% off promo code found on this site!

I'm no longer on any RX drugs however still feel miserable! Thanks for the above info I really appreciate it brother!

Be patient. I have known people that tell me it took them 6 months to a year to feel "normal". It is not easy to get off these drugs.

 

[burnoutat42]

i'm going through the same thing exactly, pretty much. i am quite new to TRT so still trying to figure out a lot of things. please take this with a pound of salt. (i'm 39 yo for reference).

first, i think my doctor is quite good (i've seen dozens over the years and finally found one i can trust). he himself was on ativan and getting off was one of the most horrific experiences in his life. so at least based on that i understand that he shares some of the pain that i'm going through. also he is on the TRT protocol himself and for 60+ yo guy looks quite great.

before i started the protocol about 3 months ago i was ridden with anxiety, panic and all the "good stuff" that comes from klonopin withdrawal. wound up hospitalized more than once, over many years of trying to kick this horrible drug. the doctor was adamant that TRT can help me to cope with the feelings of hopelessness and strong panic. indeed my T numbers were extremely low e2, of course, pretty high. taking AI (total of 16 pills, 1mg/each over about 2 months) seemed to help a lot.

for the first few weeks i didn't feel much of anything but around 2 week mark i noticed a remarkable improvement in my state of being. i went from being unable to drive because of anxiety to finally feeling normal, laughing and having sex with wife non-stop. for 3 months i found some internal base-level of support, which allowed me to do things i didn't think i'd ever be able to enjoy again.

unfortunately as i was running out of my first batch of cream i didn't get the labs done in time and completely unrelated came down with a bad flu. so i ran out of cream and noticed slowly, but surely over the course of a few weeks i started slipping into a deep depression and very similar panic to what i was feeling prior to TRT. by the time i got my labs done (which is about 10 - 12 days) after I ran out of creams, my numbers were lower than before I started. anxiety and insomnia came back with a vengeance. (i have not changed my benzo dose during this time).

my doc was able to get me another batch ordered pretty much the same day. now i'm 2.5 weeks into my second batch and for a while i felt good. my baseline has lifted again, but i'm still dealing with insomnia, panic and anxiety. my doc says i have to wait until my e2 gets under control again. and even though i have some pretty good days, where i experience very little anxiety ... for the last week or so pretty much every little event can set me off into becoming a crying scared "little kid" (or senile old man).

so that's my story of the last few months of TRT and benzos. overall i found hope because after 10 years of various anti depressants, benzos and self-medication there is something in my life that actually makes a dent in this twisted up world of emotions and nutty feelings. today i just hope that i can stabilize again where i can get some decent sleep and stop falling into panic and isolation every time i think about some challenge.

i'm going through the same thing exactly, pretty much. i am quite new to TRT so still trying to figure out a lot of things. please take this with a pound of salt. (i'm 39 yo for reference).

first, i think my doctor is quite good (i've seen dozens over the years and finally found one i can trust). he himself was on ativan and getting off was one of the most horrific experiences in his life. so at least based on that i understand that he shares some of the pain that i'm going through. also he is on the TRT protocol himself and for 60+ yo guy looks quite great.

before i started the protocol about 3 months ago i was ridden with anxiety, panic and all the "good stuff" that comes from klonopin withdrawal. wound up hospitalized more than once, over many years of trying to kick this horrible drug. the doctor was adamant that TRT can help me to cope with the feelings of hopelessness and strong panic. indeed my T numbers were extremely low e2, of course, pretty high. taking AI (total of 16 pills, 1mg/each over about 2 months) seemed to help a lot.

for the first few weeks i didn't feel much of anything but around 2 week mark i noticed a remarkable improvement in my state of being. i went from being unable to drive because of anxiety to finally feeling normal, laughing and having sex with wife non-stop. for 3 months i found some internal base-level of support, which allowed me to do things i didn't think i'd ever be able to enjoy again.

unfortunately as i was running out of my first batch of cream i didn't get the labs done in time and completely unrelated came down with a bad flu. so i ran out of cream and noticed slowly, but surely over the course of a few weeks i started slipping into a deep depression and very similar panic to what i was feeling prior to TRT. by the time i got my labs done (which is about 10 - 12 days) after I ran out of creams, my numbers were lower than before I started. anxiety and insomnia came back with a vengeance. (i have not changed my benzo dose during this time).

my doc was able to get me another batch ordered pretty much the same day. now i'm 2.5 weeks into my second batch and for a while i felt good. my baseline has lifted again, but i'm still dealing with insomnia, panic and anxiety. my doc says i have to wait until my e2 gets under control again. and even though i have some pretty good days, where i experience very little anxiety ... for the last week or so pretty much every little event can set me off into becoming a crying scared "little kid" (or senile old man).

so that's my story of the last few months of TRT and benzos. overall i found hope because after 10 years of various anti depressants, benzos and self-medication there is something in my life that actually makes a dent in this twisted up world of emotions and nutty feelings. today i just hope that i can stabilize again where i can get some decent sleep and stop falling into panic and isolation every time i think about some challenge.

Brother thank you so much for your reply! I have been laying in bed "Fasting", for days praying for my misery to end! If it weren't for my son I would have ended things a long time ago! After 15 months of tapering off this drug I wasn't prepared for this recent "Wave", as I had a decent "Window", only a few weeks earlier.

I saw my DR yesterday who ordered a "Complete Metabolic Panel", "Lipid Panel", "CBC w Diff W Pitt", "Antinuclear Antibodies", "FSH and LH", "Testosterone Total", and "Thyroid Cascade Profile"! I'm going to go and get my blood work done either today or tomorrow!

I have every symptom you referenced above coupled with around "Eighty additional symptoms"! I'm glad you experienced a brief respite from the majority of your symptoms after the cream was administered! At least you now know that a great deal of what you have been going through was hormonal in nature. I will pray for you even though my faith in God has been shattered at this point!

Like you I feel like I don't have a drop of testosterone flowing through my veins and I'm emotional as hell! Only those who have tapered from these class of drugs could quite possibly begin to remotely understand both the intense pain and suffering associated withdrawing from these drugs! If it makes you feel any better I only left my house a few times last last summer as I became extremely "Agoraphobic"! Every little thing stresses me out as well which is why for the most part I'm confined to my bedroom at this point!

I would write more however I feel like absolute garbage! I'm taking "Kratom", around the clock for physical pain and drinking boatloads of Ginger Tea to help with my intense nausea at times! I might fast for five days or so as it appears every time I eat something I get extremely nauseated! Not to happy about the aforementioned as I recently started training again which gave me something to look forward to)-:

In closing hang in there man as it sounds like you have undoubtedly come along way "Your a warrior / fighter", hope you know that!! Please write back when you have time time as I'm sure there are many out there who could quite possibly benefit from hearing your story!

Cheers,
RC