Estrogen at 4 but still getting bloat?

I've had to deal with water retention most of my adult life. My E2 has been low, high, and just right but I still have water retention. It's worse if I eat too much sodium. TRT has just made it slightly worse. For some of us, water retention is just a fact of life independent of our hormones. Mine is most likely related to my blood pressure, and I can't take diuretics due to sulfa allergy. The only other option for me is Aldactone, which is a DHT blocker and also used for gender reassignment, so no thanks. I'll live with the bloat before going back to that.

Well it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one. I am definitely beginning to think it's not at all estrogen related. My blood pressure was 118/70 last week so I doubt its that (but it was also checked when I wasn't bloated). Maybe it's just sodium related though I'm constantly sweating and hardly ever eat out. I don't see other people get this type of facial bloat though so it really annoys me. Also recently got my body fat checked and it was 10% so not just fat (since it's transiant in nature anyways). In regards to being bloat from Low E, could be but I can take no anti E for a week and get it at the end of the week.

MikeXL said:

Testosterone can cause bloat because it shifts mineral retention

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Can anyone explain the above and if there's anything that can be done (outside of diuretics everyday).

Man, I felt horrible with E2 at 8.9, can't imagine how you feel at 4....

Vitamin_C said:

Man, I felt horrible with E2 at 8.9, can't imagine how you feel at 4....

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I agree extremely low estradiol really makes tough issues for men, It even looks like low can be worse then high estradiol.

The general consensus is that low E is worse than high E. I know when my E2 was in the 70's I didn't feel terrible. When my E2 was below 10 I felt like absolute death.

Vitamin_C said:

The general consensus is that low E is worse than high E. I know when my E2 was in the 70's I didn't feel terrible. When my
E2 was below 10 I felt like absolute death.

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Yea it was pretty bad at 4.5, slowly feeling better though as it comes back up. Maybe I'm still getting bloated from the low E.....
Guys my TSH was 2.180 and free T4 1.42. They all seem within the ranges. Probably not a Thyroid issue right?

Vitamin_C said:

The general consensus is that low E is worse than high E. I know when my E2 was in the 70's I didn't feel terrible. When my E2 was below 10 I felt like absolute death.

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With E2 at 15 I felt like the grim reaper was leering over my shoulder.

hva said:

With E2 at 15 I felt like the grim reaper was leering over my shoulder.

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How long did it take you to get into a normal range?

I started with a trial run on Clomid and after only four weeks E2 was 68. I started to feel much better within days of taking Clomid and I could tell you almost to the day during that four weeks when E2 went from just right to elevated. I had to stop Clomid due to visual side effects and am on TRT now.

hva said:

I started with a trial run on Clomid and after only four weeks E2 was 68. I started to feel much better within days of taking Clomid and I could tell you almost to the day during that four weeks when E2 went from just right to elevated. I had to stop Clomid due to visual side effects and am on TRT now.

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I didn't realize Clomid helped raise E, will talk with Doc about it. Did you ever experience bloating (water retention in face and body) when your E was really low?

fitnessguy said:

I didn't realize Clomid helped raise E, will talk with Doc about it. Did you ever experience bloating (water retention in face and body) when your E was really low?

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Yes I've had water retention issues and high BP most of my adult life. I just have to really watch sodium intake. I get the bloat mostly in my waist and fingers but it can affect my face as well but not as much. The only time I've ever been able to keep my BP in control without meds was riding my bike around 1000 miles per year. However, I had a nasty wreck on my bike and went head first into the pavement which in turn likely damaged my pituitary and caused low T. So I don't ride anymore, am on TRT, and have to take BP meds lol. Kind of sucks.

hva said:

Yes I've had water retention issues and high BP most of my adult life. I just have to really watch sodium intake. I get the bloat mostly in my waist and fingers but it can affect my face as well but not as much. The only time I've ever been able to keep my BP in control without meds was riding my bike around 1000 miles per year. However, I had a nasty wreck on my bike and went head first into the pavement which in turn likely damaged my pituitary and caused low T. So I don't ride anymore, am on TRT, and have to take BP meds lol. Kind of sucks.

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I feel for you man. The retention I'm getting is weirdly A LOT more in my face/body and really not so much in my hands and feet. Or atleast I don't notice it there. I wonder if it's from something different or the test dose itself. I've read a lot of people lowering dose but still have the same retention though and I feel good here other than moon face so not sure what to do or where to go from here.

The only way I can rid myself of water retention after too much sodium is...drink a lot of water. This has been true before and during TRT. I know that's counter-intuitive but if you read up on how the kidneys regulate water and electrolyte balance it makes sense. Eating bananas seems to help some too but I'm not sure if that's supported by any real medical research.

hva said:

The only way I can rid myself of water retention after too much sodium is...drink a lot of water. This has been true before and during TRT. I know that's counter-intuitive but if you read up on how the kidneys regulate water and electrolyte balance it makes sense. Eating bananas seems to help some too but I'm not sure if that's supported by any real medical research.

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You know I've allways thought of myself as a huge water drinker but maybe that has something to do with it. It's hot right now so sweating a lot and also working out 6+days a week. I definitely drink a gallon a day but maybe my body needs more.

hva said:

The only way I can rid myself of water retention after too much sodium is...drink a lot of water. This has been true before and during TRT. I know that's counter-intuitive but if you read up on how the kidneys regulate water and electrolyte balance it makes sense. Eating bananas seems to help some too but I'm not sure if that's supported by any real medical research.

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Often bloating isn't necessarily the result of too much sodium, but rather an imbalance in the sodium/potassium ratio. When sodium levels greatly exceed potassium levels (ideally your potassium intake would be about twice your sodium intake, and most American diets have that ratio reversed), bloating/water retention, high blood pressure, and other nasty things happen. Eating a banana (or other high potassium/low sodium food) will help the situation by improving that ratio. Water also will help flush out the excess sodium creating the imbalance.

Esq said:

Often bloating isn't necessarily the result of too much sodium, but rather an imbalance in the sodium/potassium ratio. When sodium levels greatly exceed potassium levels (ideally your potassium intake would be about twice your sodium intake, and most American diets have that ratio reversed), bloating/water retention, high blood pressure, and other nasty things happen. Eating a banana (or other high potassium/low sodium food) will help the situation by improving that ratio. Water also will help flush out the excess sodium creating the imbalance.

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Thanks for the advice! I think you may be right about it not being too much sodium but rather an imbalance of electrolytes. I don't consume excess sodium (rarely eat out) and also sweat a lot (exercise). I can't be Estrogen (4.5 and rising lol). I don't think it's thyroid (I have had good energy lately). The only other thing it could be is just a too high replacement T dose and maybe my body can't handle that much? Although I doubt it because my total T came in at 1037.

I've heard before that being on T replacement can cause a mineral shift like your stating and make you hold onto more water potentially. Really curious as to the specifics of that if anyone knows....

fitnessguy said:

I've heard before that being on T replacement can cause a mineral shift like your stating and make you hold onto more water potentially. Really curious as to the specifics of that if anyone knows....

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TESTOSTERONE EFFECTS ON BODY WATER
The pioneers in the androgen field recognized that
testosterone administration in androgen-deficient
men and in healthy women was associated with significant
retention of sodium, chloride, and potassium,
sulfur and phosphate (Knowlton et al, 1942;
Wilson 1996). Knowlton et al. (1942) reported that
much of the early weight gain could be accounted
for by water retention in association with retained
electrolytes and protein. When administration of
androgen is topped, sodium, potassium, and water
are lost quickly (Knowlton et al, 1942; Wilson
1996). Significant water retention resulting in edema
is unusual in healthy, hypogonadal men, who
are receiving replacement doses of testosterone.
However, supraphysiologic doses of testosterone
can result in edema and exacerbate heart failure
when given to men with pre-existing heart or kidney
disease. In clinical trials of testosterone replacement
in older men (Snyder et al, 1999; Sih et al,
1997, Tenover 1998; Kenny et al, 2001), the frequency
of edema and congestive heart failure in
testosterone-treated men has been very low.

This is the first controlled study demonstrating that testosterone increases ECW. Previous data concerning the effects of testosterone on plasma volume (19, 20) and urinary sodium excretion (18, 21) are limited and conflicting. The underlying mechanism is unknown, but several possibilities exist. Testosterone could act directly on the kidney, because androgen receptors are expressed in renal tubules (31). There is evidence that androgens stimulate the expression of the angiotensinogen gene in the kidney (32, 33). Therefore, androgens could activate the local renal RAAS to stimulate sodium and water retention through an autocrine or paracrine mechanism (34). The epithelial sodium channel plays an important role in the sodium balance, as demonstrated by genetic abnormalities in its activity, such as in Liddle’s syndrome (35). It has recently been reported that androgens increase mRNA expression of the α-subunit of the epithelial sodium channel in a human renal cell line (36), providing a potential mechanism of sodium and water retention by testosterone.

The effects of testosterone on the volume and distribution of ECW could theoretically occur secondary to aromatization to estrogen in peripheral tissues. Estrogen may cause fluid retention through reduction of the plasma antidiuretic hormone (arginine vasopressin)-plasma osmolality set point (39, 40) or stimulating the synthesis of hepatic angiotensinogen (41), enhancing the overall activity of RAAS and leading to sodium retention. However, this postulate is not supported by the observation that urinary sodium excretion is increased during oral contraceptive use (42) or that the plasma renin concentration is reduced in women receiving estrogen treatment (43). Moreover, estrogen reduces the plasma renin concentration, the activity of angiotensin-converting enzyme, and the Aldo response to angiotensin II. These actions of estrogen putatively generated from aromatization of androgens could explain the slight reduction in plasma Aldo levels in response to testosterone in our study." Source