Skipped 3 pins and felt great

[Tylurnt]

Ive been having hard time dialing in. Started out 2x a week shots 150mg and then EOD injections of 22-30mg. More recently tried 30mg and made me a little worse. Got tested before I skipped the doses...Total T 605, e2 47 (high) and free T direct 31 (high). SHGB is always low...this time 9.7. DHT always low also at 31 this time. HCT and hemoglobin were slightly elevated and so was my iron, had been supplementing cause i was low last test. Quit supplementing of course

I took 4 or 5 days off injections and felt sooo much better. But then went down to 20mg EOD and slowly started to feel like shit again!!! And The past 6 days I have done 10mg every day with no improvement.

Trying to figure out why I felt so good when I skipped my dosing, yet lowering the dose by 33% made me feel like shit again. Should I go lower? Just feeling very discouraged cause im stuck on TRT and have not felt good on it for more than a few days at a time.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Ive been having hard time dialing in. Started out 2x a week shots 150mg and then EOD injections of 22-30mg. More recently tried 30mg and made me a little worse. Got tested before I skipped the doses...Total T 605, e2 47 (high) and free T direct 31 (high). SHGB is always low...this time 9.7. DHT always low also at 31 this time. HCT and hemoglobin were slightly elevated and so was my iron, had been supplementing cause i was low last test. Quit supplementing of course

I took 4 or 5 days off injections and felt sooo much better. But then went down to 20mg EOD and slowly started to feel like shit again!!! And The past 6 days I have done 10mg every day with no improvement.

Trying to figure out why I felt so good when I skipped my dosing, yet lowering the dose by 33% made me feel like shit again. Should I go lower? Just feeling very discouraged cause im stuck on TRT and have not felt good on it for more than a few days at a time.

There are many points of view on this topic, but my two cents is to try going without pinning for as long as you can and then when symptoms reappear, inject a low-moderate dose and repeat the process. T is (among other things) a signaling molecule and some people may do better at much longer intervals that theory would suggest is optimal. We've had reports of that here before. What do you mean by saying you're stuck on TRT? What else is in your protocol? What are your exact symptoms of feeling worse?

 

[Tylurnt]

There are many points of view on this topic, but my two cents is to try going without pinning for as long as you can and then when symptoms reappear, inject a low-moderate dose and repeat the process. T is (among other things) a signaling molecule and some people may do better at much longer intervals that theory would suggest is optimal. We've had reports of that here before. What do you mean by saying you're stuck on TRT? What else is in your protocol? What are your exact symptoms of feeling worse?

Ive been on it for over a year..initially troche's until June this year started injections. My nervous system is ultra sensitive from mold toxicity from a year and a half ago...so I just dont think I'll be able to quit right now. I was stupid and didnt research into TRT to see thats its pretty much for lice before I started. My total T was 150 before TRT , but was also recovering from mold illness. Im 29 years old by the way.

My feeling "worse" is bad anxiety feeling that is all day long...doesnt even revolve around a thought usually, just a feeling.., stiff knees, feeling cold, no motivation whatsoever and sleep messed up.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Ive been on it for over a year..initially troche's until June this year started injections. My nervous system is ultra sensitive from mold toxicity from a year and a half ago...so I just dont think I'll be able to quit right now. I was stupid and didnt research into TRT to see thats its pretty much for lice before I started. My total T was 150 before TRT , but was also recovering from mold illness. Im 29 years old by the way.

My feeling "worse" is bad anxiety feeling that is all day long...doesnt even revolve around a thought usually, just a feeling.., stiff knees, feeling cold, no motivation whatsoever and sleep messed up.

From the limited info I’d say it sounds like you were treating a symptom (low t) instead of the cause… which is likely whatever damage was done from the mild exposure. Mold can mess up immune sysyems, thyroid function, and all kinds of other things. Did you have issues before the mold toxicity diagnosis? Also, were there any other types of treatments attempted before jumping on to trt? TRT don’t have to be for life, and plenty of people stop treatment after starting. I’d say the main thing is to determine the scope of impact done by the mold and attempt to resolve that.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Trying to figure out why I felt so good when I skipped my dosing, yet lowering the dose by 33% made me feel like shit again.

I recall you were injecting subq - have you switched to IM yet? Must try if that hasn't been done yet.

Otherwise, I would try another formula of injectable T, and if that fails another modality. It seems like your current formula is going to make you feel like shit every time you inject it, so if you have to continue with this one for awhile, the rational move is to space out the injections as much as possible so you have more good days and less bad post-injection days. Maybe try once every 5-7 days.

When I first started TRT I was very sensitive to the standard test cypionate in GSO with benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol excipients. I had anxiety, insomnia, general overstimulation, and just felt very weird and altered in my state of consciousness, even at low doses. I switched to hikma test enanthate, which uses sesame oil and chlorobutanol as preservative, and immediately felt much better, suddenly able to tolerate much higher doses comfortably.

Years later I can take pretty much any testosterone and feel decent, but some esters and carriers continue to be much better than others. With testosterone cypionate, I fare better with MCT than GSO. My most preferred protocol is actually daily test prop in GSO (MCT releases too fast with prop).

So, in your shoes I would try these in the following order, proceeding to the next if a step fails:

1. immediately switch to IM if you haven't yet
2. Lengthen injection intervals to 5-7 days
3. Switch formula (I would try hikma enanthate, test cypionate in MCT instead of GSO, and test prop in GSO)
4. Switch modality (I would try scrotal cream first, then oral testosterone)

If your baseline is truly 150 ng/dL, getting off entirely is not a medically rational option for you. In that case you will need to be committed to making this work, and you will succeed if you diligently explore all of your options. You've not even begun to do so.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

SHGB is always low...this time 9.7

I missed this earlier. Are you obese? Are you insulin resistant? What does your lipid panel (HDL and Triglycerides), fasting glucose, HbA1c, fasting insulin look like? E2 at 47 means sky high free E2 with single digit SHBG.

You may have some work to do on metabolic health before you will respond well to TRT. And if that's the case, you may actually be barking up the wrong tree with testosterone, where a GLP-1 drug would have made more sense as a first line therapy:

Short-term impact of tirzepatide on metabolic hypogonadism and body composition in patients with obesity: a controlled pilot study - Reproductive Biology and Endocrinology

Background Tirzepatide (TZP), a dual agonist of glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) receptors, has recently been introduced in Italy for the treatment of obesity. Obesity is frequently associated with metabolic hypogonadism, which is characterized...

link.springer.com

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Every time a TRT noob watches this video, an angel gets its wings:

 

[Tylurnt]

I missed this earlier. Are you obese? Are you insulin resistant? What does your lipid panel (HDL and Triglycerides), fasting glucose, HbA1c, fasting insulin look like? E2 at 47 means sky high free E2 with single digit SHBG.

You may have some work to do on metabolic health before you will respond well to TRT. And if that's the case, you may actually be barking up the wrong tree with testosterone, where a GLP-1 drug would have made more sense as a first line therapy:

Short-term impact of tirzepatide on metabolic hypogonadism and body composition in patients with obesity: a controlled pilot study - Reproductive Biology and Endocrinology

Background Tirzepatide (TZP), a dual agonist of glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) receptors, has recently been introduced in Italy for the treatment of obesity. Obesity is frequently associated with metabolic hypogonadism, which is characterized...

link.springer.com

Im 5'11 165lb with hardly any body fat. Its not insulin resistance. T3 t4 and tsh look fine also. Bad cholesterol is a little high and good is a little low

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Im 5'11 165lb with hardly any body fat. Its not insulin resistance

Awesome - odds that the algorithm I dropped for you gets everything sorted are now excellent.

 

[Tylurnt]

I recall you were injecting subq - have you switched to IM yet? Must try if that hasn't been done yet.

Otherwise, I would try another formula of injectable T, and if that fails another modality. It seems like your current formula is going to make you feel like shit every time you inject it, so if you have to continue with this one for awhile, the rational move is to space out the injections as much as possible so you have more good days and less bad post-injection days. Maybe try once every 5-7 days.

When I first started TRT I was very sensitive to the standard test cypionate in GSO with benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol excipients. I had anxiety, insomnia, general overstimulation, and just felt very weird and altered in my state of consciousness, even at low doses. I switched to hikma test enanthate, which uses sesame oil and chlorobutanol as preservative, and immediately felt much better, suddenly able to tolerate much higher doses comfortably.

Years later I can take pretty much any testosterone and feel decent, but some esters and carriers continue to be much better than others. With testosterone cypionate, I fare better with MCT than GSO. My most preferred protocol is actually daily test prop in GSO (MCT releases too fast with prop).

So, in your shoes I would try these in the following order, proceeding to the next if a step fails:

1. immediately switch to IM if you haven't yet
2. Lengthen injection intervals to 5-7 days
3. Switch formula (I would try hikma enanthate, test cypionate in MCT instead of GSO, and test prop in GSO)
4. Switch modality (I would try scrotal cream first, then oral testosterone)

If your baseline is truly 150 ng/dL, getting off entirely is not a medically rational option for you. In that case you will need to be committed to making this work, and you will succeed if you diligently explore all of your options. You've not even begun to do so.

Test E from hikma is exactly what im using. Even with high e2 youd reccomend switching to IM and lower frequency? Wouldn't that spike e2?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Test E from hikma is exactly what im using. Even with high e2 youd reccomend switching to IM and lower frequency? Wouldn't that spike e2?

Higher E2 with SC than with IM is a very common finding in the real world. It's happened to many men on this very forum (including myself) and if you search on Reddit you will find many (many, many) more examples. When this happens, how does it happen? My hypothesis: esterases needed to remove the ester from testosterone are present in the subcutaneous interstitium where you've placed the oil depot (this part is proven, not hypothesis), liberating some amount of testosterone, where it can now diffuse into aromatase-laden fat tissue. We've debated this phenomenon at length in the past on the forum, so feel free to search for more discussion, and arguments for and against it.

I would not recommend changing both injection method and frequency at once. Change one variable, see what happens first, then change another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense in you some reluctance to experiment with different approaches that run contrary to theoretical ideas you've picked up on. Nothing will humble a cerebral, theory-based individual like TRT, which defies all attempts to systematize and standardize therapy. In tougher cases like yours, you literally have to try everything, and if there is some intellectual idea that presents an obstacle to literally trying everything, it is doing you a great disservice. Drop it like a bad habit.

 

[Tylurnt]

Higher E2 with SC than with IM is a very common finding in the real world. It's happened to many men on this very forum (including myself) and if you search on Reddit you will find many (many, many) more examples. When this happens, how does it happen? My hypothesis: esterases needed to remove the ester from testosterone are present in the subcutaneous interstitium where you've placed the oil depot (this part is proven, not hypothesis), liberating some amount of testosterone, where it can now diffuse into aromatase-laden fat tissue. We've debated this phenomenon at length in the past on the forum, so feel free to search for more discussion, and arguments for and against it.

View attachment 54652

I would not recommend changing both injection method and frequency at once. Change one variable, see what happens first, then change another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense in you some reluctance to experiment with different approaches that run contrary to theoretical ideas you've picked up on. Nothing will humble a cerebral, theory-based individual like TRT, which defies all attempts to systematize and standardize therapy. In tougher cases like yours, you literally have to try everything, and if there is some intellectual idea that presents an obstacle to literally trying everything, it is doing you a great disservice. Drop it like a bad habit.

I understand...im more reluctant because changes in protocol always make me feel really bad. Im more nervous about doing a bigger dose all at once...im prone to that fight or flight anxiety feeling. But maybe you are right that ed injections just arent good for me

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I understand...im more reluctant because changes in protocol always make me feel really bad. Im more nervous about doing a bigger dose all at once...im prone to that fight or flight anxiety feeling. But maybe you are right that ed injections just arent good for me

I wouldn't start with bigger injections, I would start with IM as your first experiment. If you need some inspiration, just go to reddit, and look at how many people feel like hot garbage on SC.

 

[Vince]

A few weeks ago we had a lot of snow in Milwaukee and I got trapped downtown. I stayed in hotel and I missed 2 days injections. I did not feel anything different. When I return home I just continued my normal protocol.

 

[Tylurnt]

I wouldn't start with bigger injections, I would start with IM as your first experiment. If you need some inspiration, just go to reddit, and look at how many people feel like hot garbage on SC.

How long would you reccomend staying with one protocol before I know its not gonna work?

 

[Tylurnt]

I wouldn't start with bigger injections, I would start with IM as your first experiment. If you need some inspiration, just go to reddit, and look at how many people feel like hot garbage on SC.

Another issue my DHT is always really low. Do you think thats why I dont feel good on TRT?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

How long would you reccomend staying with one protocol before I know its not gonna work?

6+ weeks

Another issue my DHT is always really low. Do you think thats why I dont feel good on TRT?

Probably not, remember your SHBG is extremely low, and your free DHT is likely very good. You can always experiment with scrotal cream at some point if you want to see what supraphysiologic DHT feels like.

 

[Seagal]

I think you should also focus on your free levels. You listed free T being high. Don't know how to convert your dht to free dht but with low shgb is should move from low to at least middle.
My theory on SC injections: different sites, different metabolism. If you injected into the belly region, you could try the glutes.
IMHO ed sc is overkill. Twice per week should be sufficient.
The IM injections appear to be the gold standard as @FunkOdyssey explained.
TC and TE give me bad sc site reactions. With TU sc no problem at all.

 

[madman]

Higher E2 with SC than with IM is a very common finding in the real world. It's happened to many men on this very forum (including myself) and if you search on Reddit you will find many (many, many) more examples. When this happens, how does it happen? My hypothesis: esterases needed to remove the ester from testosterone are present in the subcutaneous interstitium where you've placed the oil depot (this part is proven, not hypothesis), liberating some amount of testosterone, where it can now diffuse into aromatase-laden fat tissue. We've debated this phenomenon at length in the past on the forum, so feel free to search for more discussion, and arguments for and against it.

View attachment 54652

I would not recommend changing both injection method and frequency at once. Change one variable, see what happens first, then change another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense in you some reluctance to experiment with different approaches that run contrary to theoretical ideas you've picked up on. Nothing will humble a cerebral, theory-based individual like TRT, which defies all attempts to systematize and standardize therapy. In tougher cases like yours, you literally have to try everything, and if there is some intellectual idea that presents an obstacle to literally trying everything, it is doing you a great disservice. Drop it like a bad habit.

Higher E2 with SC than with IM is a very common finding in the real world.


Far from a given that injecting sub-q. is going to lead to higher e2 vs IM.

I could name numerous top experts in the field that treat 1000s of men who would tell you otherwise.

Me and 1000s of other men have never experienced such.




My hypothesis: esterases needed to remove the ester from testosterone are present in the subcutaneous interstitium where you've placed the oil depot (this part is proven, not hypothesis), liberating some amount of testosterone, where it can now diffuse into aromatase-laden fat tissue.


Need to renege on that one and next time round post the source!

You should know better by now.

You did a hack job on that schematic illustration (Figure 2B) too!

Thread 'TRT with Subcutaneous Testosterone Injections: A Safe, Practical and Reasonable Option'

Oct 26, 2021

Abstract Context: Injections with intramuscular testosterone esters have been available for almost 8 decades and not only result in predictable serum testosterone levels but are also the most inexpensive modality. However, they are difficult to self-administer and associated with some discomfort. Recently, subcutaneous administration of testosterone esters has gained popularity, as self-administration is easier with this route. Available data, though limited, support the feasibility of this route. Here we review the pharmacokinetics and safety of subcutaneous testosterone therapy...

• madman
• subcutaneous testosterone injections
• Replies: 22
• Forum: Testosterone Basics & Questions

• 

Post in thread 'Where does hydrolysis of ND occur in the human body after release from an oil depot?'

Mar 30, 2024

Are the articles contradictory? Or is there partial hydrolysis within the insterstitium, but it is considered small enough to neglect?

I would say the schematic illustration (post #16/Figure 2B) from the Testosterone Therapy with Subcutaneous Injections: A Safe, Practical and Reasonable Option paper is not an accurate representation.

If anything I would say negligible.

TRT with Subcutaneous Testosterone Injections: A Safe, Practical and Reasonable Option - Excel Male Health Forum

Abstract Context: Injections with intramuscular testosterone esters have been available for almost 8 decades and not only result in predictable serum testosterone levels but are also the most inexpensive modality. However, they are difficult to self-administer and associated with some...

www.excelmale.com

Subcutaneous vs Intramuscular Routes

The...

• madman

• 

How long would you reccomend staying with one protocol before I know its not gonna work?

6+ weeks


Way off here!

The first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the BIGGER picture.

Put money on it that the OP was and will be chasing his tail endlessly because he has never even given any protocol a fighting chance (12 weeks).

Sounds like this guy has been tweaking his dose/injection frequency way too soon as in well before his body has even had a chance (12 weeks) to adapt to it's new set-point!

He has only been on TRT injections for 5 months, do the math!

Post in thread 'T.Cyp 100 mg/week - Night sweats, anxiety'

Sep 27, 2023

Again for any of the rookies starting TRT or in many cases those already well into their journey still caught up on tweaking their protocols to soon this needs to be stressed!

Too many are still making the grave mistake of tweaking their protocols to soon.

Quick fix anyone LOL!

The first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the BIGGER picture!

This is gold!


26.What is a reasonable timeline to begin to observe improvements in the signs and symptoms of testosterone deficiency?

*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to...

• madman

• 

26.What is a reasonable timeline to begin to observe improvements in the signs and symptoms of testosterone deficiency?

* Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD.76,77 As such, patients should be counseled that symptom response will not be immediate. Expectations for treatment response should be established with each patient. Patients can anticipate improvements in many of the common symptoms of TD (libido, energy levels, sexual function) after 3 months of treatment or longer. Metabolic and structural (body composition, muscle mass, bone density) changes may take upwards of 6 months. 77 In addition, patients should be counseled that diet and exercise in combination with testosterone therapy are recommended for body composition changes.


* Appreciating this pattern of response to testosterone therapy is fundamental when determining the impact of treatment and the appropriate timing of follow-up evaluations while on therapy. For example, if patients undergo a symptom review and measurement of testosterone levels too early (< 3 months), it may lead both physicians and patients to conclude that the treatment has not been impactful (i.e. normal levels of testosterone without symptomatic/structural/metabolic benefit). However, if the same assessment was scheduled 3-6 months after the initiation of therapy, the clinical response tends to be more reflective of normalized levels of serum testosterone.

T

Thread 'Normal T, but low DHT and SHBG'

Dec 17, 2025

Ive been on TRT for 5 months and dont feel like ive been able to dial in. I struggle with anxiety, fatigue and brain fog. I started at 22mg EOD subq and worked up to 28mg. And 7 days ago I bumped up to 30mg and that finally hit today and I feel very jittery and on edge. I eat very clean, im lean so I dont believe I have insulin resistance. With my symptoms, would I be better off to try dropping to 20mg EOD? Just feel like crap and im tired of it.

• Tylurnt
• symptoms trt advice
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Testosterone Basics & Questions

 

[Tylurnt]

6+ weeks

Probably not, remember your SHBG is extremely low, and your free DHT is likely very good. You can always experiment with scrotal cream at some point if you want to see what supraphysiologic DHT feels like

my Free DHT was low also.

6+ weeks

Probably not, remember your SHBG is extremely low, and your free DHT is likely very good. You can always experiment with scrotal cream at some point if you want to see what supraphysiologic DHT feels like.

My free DHT was at the very bottom end also