Deca Gains. What to expect

Doc just prescribed me 100mg weekly of Deca for joint pain and a bad shoulder. my current protocol is Test Cyp 180mg weekly (pin eod). I am a seasoned lifter. 38 years old. about 12% bf. Pull 500 pound deadlifts for reps. Since starting TRT about a year ago I have put on about 7-10 pounds of muscle but hat has plateaued. My question is, what kind of gains will I see from 100mg of Deca. How much lean mass is possible? Strength? fat loss? etc.

If you have any experiences, first or second hand please let me know. If you could do me a favor and keep this thread on track and not deviate from the topic I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance.

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Briefing Document: Deca Gains - Expectations and Realities (Excel Male TRT Forum)​

Date: October 26, 2023 Source: Excerpts from "Deca Gains. What to expect - Excel Male TRT Forum"

I. Executive Summary​

This document summarizes key discussions from an online forum thread regarding the use of Nandrolone (Deca) at therapeutic doses, primarily for joint pain, in conjunction with Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). The central theme revolves around managing expectations for muscle gain, strength increase, and fat loss when using Nandrolone at lower, medically prescribed doses (50-100mg/week) versus higher, bodybuilding-centric doses (200-600mg/week). While some anecdotal evidence suggests mild improvements in body composition, strength, and overall well-being, the consensus is that therapeutic doses of Deca are primarily for symptom management (e.g., joint pain relief) rather than significant anabolic effects. Potential side effects and monitoring of blood markers are also discussed.

II. Main Themes and Key Insights​

1. Therapeutic vs. Anabolic Dosing of Nandrolone (Deca):

• Definition: The most crucial distinction made throughout the discussion is between "therapeutic" and "steroid" doses of Nandrolone.
• Therapeutic Dose: 50-100mg/week is considered a therapeutic dose, primarily prescribed for joint pain and bone health. "No one is using 100mg/week of nandrolone for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement/strength gains." - madman, Super Moderator
• Anabolic/Steroid Dose: 200mg/week and above (up to 300-600mg/week) is considered the minimum range for significant muscle and strength gains. "200-200+mg/week is the minimum dose needed where one would start to reap the true muscle-building potential of nandrolone." - madman, Super Moderator
• Expectation Management: Users are strongly advised not to expect substantial muscle mass, strength, or fat loss at therapeutic doses. Gains will be "minimal when compared to using the steroid doses needed for moderate-significant gains in muscle mass." - madman, Super Moderator

2. Deca's Primary Benefit: Joint Pain Relief and Lubrication (Masking, Not Curing):

• Nandrolone is commonly prescribed for joint pain, as in the case of the thread starter, DixieWrecked, who received 100mg weekly for "joint pain and a bad shoulder."
• The mechanism involves increased joint lubrication, fluid retention, and increased collagen.
• Important Caveat: Nandrolone "does not heal damaged tendons which in most cases is tendinosis (degeneration) from wear/tear, aging. Nandrolone will just mask the symptoms." - madman, Super Moderator Symptoms are expected to return upon cessation of the drug.
• A user (Vince) on a low dose (20mg EOD) did "not notice any improvement joint issues."

3. Lean Mass, Strength, and Body Composition Changes at Therapeutic Doses:

• Limited Gains: While some "improvements in body composition" are expected, significant gains in muscle or strength are not. "At such a dose do not expect any significant gains in muscle/strength." - madman, Super Moderator
• Nitrogen Retention: Even at 100mg, Deca "will increase nitrogen retention in the muscle making your muscles fuller inside and outside of the gym." - DS3, Well-Known Member, former bodybuilder
• Strength vs. Muscle: One user's anecdotal video reference suggested "the 100mg of nandrolone group gained around the same amount of muscle as the 300mg of test group. So muscle gains on deca were clearly much better. Think deca lacked in the strength department, compared to test tho." - Gman86, Member (This contradicts the super moderator's general stance on strength at low doses).
• Water Retention and Appearance: Deca can lead to "more water retention resulting in a smoothed over look as opposed to a leaner more vascular look." - DS3, Well-Known Member
• Individual Variability: The outcome is highly dependent on "training/diet... and more importantly genetics." - madman, Super Moderator

4. Impact on Blood Markers and Health Concerns:

• Hematocrit/Hemoglobin: Nandrolone, especially when combined with high Testosterone doses, can negatively impact hemoglobin and hematocrit levels. Users are advised to "keep an eye on those blood markers." - madman, Super Moderator
• Lipids (HDL): Nandrolone "can have a negative impact" on HDL (good cholesterol) markers. - madman, Super Moderator
• An Example: LerxstM4, on 200mg TestC and 100mg Nandrolone weekly, reported a hematocrit of 45.0 and HDL of 55, which were considered within acceptable ranges, and noted an improvement in hematocrit compared to a higher Test-only protocol.

5. Ancillary Benefits and Side Effects:

• Positive Anecdotes:Vince (20mg Nandrolone EOD): Noticed "some increase in strength, libido and mind clarity." Also experienced initial increase in hunger and belly fat that resolved.
• LerxstM4 (100mg Nandrolone + 200mg TestC weekly): Reported feeling "much better," "Libido is fantastic," "able to put on muscle I haven't been able to put on since I was a soldier in the Army back in the early 90s. I sleep better and am more alert during the day."
• DS3 (former user): Joints "feel better with nandrolone and my muscles stay full/recover quicker."
• Negative Side Effects:Mood/Sleep: DS3 reported experiencing "depression and sleep disturbances" after 6 weeks of nandrolone, leading them to stop. This highlights individual variability in response.
• Water Retention/Vascularity: As mentioned, water retention is common, and many users "tend to become less vascular taking nandrolone." - DS3, Well-Known Member

6. Comparisons to Testosterone:

• Anabolicity: While Nandrolone "binds more strongly to the AR [androgen receptor]" than testosterone, at therapeutic doses (100mg/week), it is not used for its muscle-building potential. - madman, Super Moderator
• Strength: Speculation exists that testosterone may lead to better strength gains due to its higher aromatization to E2 (estrogen). - Gman86, Member

III. Key Facts and Takeaways​

• 100mg Deca/week is a therapeutic dose: Primarily for joint pain/bone health, not significant muscle/strength gains.
• Joint relief is symptomatic: Deca masks pain by increasing lubrication and collagen; it doesn't heal underlying damage.
• Muscle gains are minimal at therapeutic doses: Expect minor body composition improvements, not "freak" gains.
• Strength gains are generally not a primary effect at lower doses, though some anecdotal reports vary.
• Blood monitoring is crucial: Pay attention to hemoglobin, hematocrit, and HDL levels, especially when combining Deca with higher TRT doses.
• Individual response varies: Some users experience significant positive effects (libido, clarity, mild gains), while others suffer adverse effects (depression, sleep disturbances).
• Water retention is a common aesthetic effect: Leads to a "smoothed over" look rather than increased vascularity.

Frequently Asked Questions

1. What is Deca (Nandrolone) typically prescribed for at lower doses?​

At lower doses, typically ranging from 50mg to 100mg per week, Deca (Nandrolone) is primarily prescribed for therapeutic purposes. Its main clinical application is to alleviate joint pain, improve bone health, and provide increased lubrication and fluid retention in joints. It's important to note that while it can mask symptoms and provide relief, it doesn't necessarily heal underlying issues like tendinosis permanently.

2. Can I expect significant muscle and strength gains from a 100mg weekly dose of Deca?​

No, a 100mg weekly dose of Deca is generally considered a therapeutic dose and is not expected to produce significant gains in muscle mass or strength. While some minor improvements in body composition and strength may be observed, larger doses (e.g., 200-600mg/week) are typically needed to unlock its full muscle-building potential for bodybuilding or athletic enhancement. Factors like diet, training, and individual genetics play a much larger role in outcomes at lower doses.

3. How does Deca compare to Testosterone in terms of anabolic effects and strength gains?​

While Deca (Nandrolone) binds more strongly to the androgen receptor (AR) than testosterone, suggesting a higher anabolic rating, a therapeutic dose of 100mg/week of Deca is not intended for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement or significant strength gains. Testosterone's ability to aromatize into estrogen more readily than Deca may contribute to its perceived better strength gains in some contexts, although this is speculative. Anecdotal evidence suggests Deca might be better for muscle gains at certain comparable doses, but less effective for strength.

4. What impact can Deca have on joint health?​

Deca is known to relieve or improve joint pain due to increased joint lubrication, fluid retention, and increased collagen synthesis. However, it typically masks symptoms rather than permanently healing damaged tendons or ligaments, which often suffer from degeneration (tendinosis) due to wear, tear, and aging. The pain may return once the medication is stopped, and continued heavy training without addressing underlying issues can further exacerbate joint problems.

5. Are there any notable side effects or blood marker changes to monitor when using Deca, especially in combination with high-dose Testosterone?​

Yes, when using Deca, particularly in combination with a high dose of Testosterone Cypionate (e.g., 180mg/week), it's crucial to monitor certain blood markers. Nandrolone can negatively affect lipid markers, specifically HDL (good cholesterol). Additionally, combining it with high testosterone levels can elevate hemoglobin and hematocrit (red blood cell count), which may require monitoring and potentially therapeutic phlebotomy (blood donation) to keep within a healthy range. Some users have also reported initial increases in hunger and belly fat, though these may subside. Depression and sleep disturbances have also been reported by some individuals even at therapeutic doses.

6. What kind of body composition changes might one expect from a therapeutic Deca dose?​

At a therapeutic dose (e.g., 100mg/week), Deca can lead to increased nitrogen retention in muscles, potentially making them appear fuller. However, it can also cause water retention, resulting in a "smoothed over" look rather than a lean or vascular one. Some users have also noted becoming less vascular while on nandrolone. While some weight gain might occur due to water retention, true increases in lean mass are minimal at these lower therapeutic doses and are largely dependent on diet and calorie consumption.

7. How does the administration frequency of Testosterone and Deca affect benefits and side effects?​

Injecting testosterone and nandrolone more frequently, such as every other day (EOD), can contribute to a more stable hormonal profile, which some users report leads to feeling better overall, improved libido, better sleep, and increased alertness. This frequent administration can also potentially help manage peak and trough levels of hormones, which might influence side effects like hematocrit elevation compared to less frequent injections.

8. Is Deca suitable for long-term use for joint issues?​

While Deca can provide significant relief for joint pain due to its lubricating and collagen-increasing effects, it's generally not considered a permanent cure for chronic joint issues like tendinosis. The symptomatic relief often ceases once the medication is discontinued, and continued strenuous activity without addressing the root cause can perpetuate the problem. Therefore, it's often viewed as a way to mask symptoms and improve comfort rather than a long-term healing solution.

 

more plates more dates

 

Here’s a video that might help u out. I watched it fairly recently. Think the 100mg of nandrolone group gained around the same amount of muscle as the 300mg of test group. So muscle gains on deca were clearly much better. Think deca lacked in the strength department, compared to test tho. I would imagine due to deca aromatizing extremely little into E2. I would imagine testosterone’s ability to aromatize much more than deca lead to the testosterone group having better strength gains. Just speculation tho. There might be other mechanisms that make testosterone better for strength

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To add to this, here is the breakdown in results of the study regarding weight gain from nandrolone versus testosterone.

1. T-300 group gained 22.95% greater weight (kg) than the ND-100 group and 2.98% more than the ND-300 group.
2. T-300 group lost 80% more in terms of body fat compared to the ND-100 group, and ND-300 group actually gained 1.1 mm in bf.

Key takeaways would be that higher testosterone is going to give you greater increases in weight and fat loss compared to low and high doses of nandrolone. Additionally, high doses of nandrolone may actually increase body fat.

 

I’ve been lifting almost 36 years Entirely natural before TRT started 18 months ago.

90mg of nandrolone did increase muscle mass during the first 3 months or so of use. Gain about 3-4 kgs of weight and strength gains were small at no more than a 5% of compound lifts, but seemed to recover better and elbow joints definitely improved allowing me to bicep curl again without too much discomfort. This made the use of deca entirely positive as it meant I could train pretty much as I would want albeit still being sensible

my T dose was around 130 mg a week and in the later couple of months reduced the deca to 60mg a week. Elbows remained ok during this period.

 

I’ve used deca @ 80-100 mg / wk for 10 week cycles twice already. Loved it. Joints healed and gained a little muscle Definitely a game changer.

 

I’ve used deca @ 80-100 mg / wk for 10 week cycles twice already. Loved it. Joints healed and gained a little muscle Definitely a game changer.

Did your joints remain healthy feeling after cessation?

 

Here’s how it played out for me-

I retained full joint relief for about 2 months after the first cycle, then a few of the more severe ones, in my case it was my knee and neck, came back but at a noticeable level of improvement. Many other injuries cleared up.

After the second cycle, my nagging knee pain is gone about 80 percent. This was amazing. I lived in pain for 10 years with chronic knee tendonitis and it’s pretty much cleared up, as is my chronic IT band pain and planar fasciitis.

Just started round three of deca last week.

Also of note was that my Creatinine levels, which had been elevated for years, came down after each cycle. A PA told me this was from the anti inflammatory effects of deca. Lipids were perfect (I am on a low dose statin - 5 mg Crestor keeps me at 135 total cholesterol and LDL around 65. On the deca, the ldl and total jumped 7-10 points but still puts me at near perfect levels so no issues there either.

 

Here’s how it played out for me-

I retained full joint relief for about 2 months after the first cycle, then a few of the more severe ones, in my case it was my knee and neck, came back but at a noticeable level of improvement. Many other injuries cleared up.

After the second cycle, my nagging knee pain is gone about 80 percent. This was amazing. I lived in pain for 10 years with chronic knee tendonitis and it’s pretty much cleared up, as is my chronic IT band pain and planar fasciitis.

Just started round three of deca last week.

Also of note was that my Creatinine levels, which had been elevated for years, came down after each cycle. A PA told me this was from the anti inflammatory effects of deca. Lipids were perfect (I am on a low dose statin - 5 mg Crestor keeps me at 135 total cholesterol and LDL around 65. On the deca, the ldl and total jumped 7-10 points but still puts me at near perfect levels so no issues there either.

Nice, have you noticed more testicular shrinkage or noticeable decreased semen production from nandrolone?

 

Nice, have you noticed more testicular shrinkage or noticeable decreased semen production from nandrolone?

None at all but I’m on TRT and take hCG

 

Here’s how it played out for me-

I retained full joint relief for about 2 months after the first cycle, then a few of the more severe ones, in my case it was my knee and neck, came back but at a noticeable level of improvement. Many other injuries cleared up.

After the second cycle, my nagging knee pain is gone about 80 percent. This was amazing. I lived in pain for 10 years with chronic knee tendonitis and it’s pretty much cleared up, as is my chronic IT band pain and planar fasciitis.

Just started round three of deca last week.

Also of note was that my Creatinine levels, which had been elevated for years, came down after each cycle. A PA told me this was from the anti inflammatory effects of deca. Lipids were perfect (I am on a low dose statin - 5 mg Crestor keeps me at 135 total cholesterol and LDL around 65. On the deca, the ldl and total jumped 7-10 points but still puts me at near perfect levels so no issues there either.

Really great stuff. Very happy that this is working so well for you! Cheers.

 

@JimGainz what were your creatinine levels before and after. Do you think your creatinine levels will stay down even off the deca?

 

It's funny how most of those taking deca alongside test for TRT have a desire to pack on a bit more muscle; which leads me to the opinion that this is the main reason for administering.

Not that I'm knocking them for it, but it's true in most cases.

 

For me it was primarily joints. I was really pleased with the improvement in elbow discomfort, but little progress on shoulder and knee.

so I wouldn’t say it was a wonder drug but certainly helped restore more enjoyment from training, which is my passion anyway.

the relatively modest muscle gain was a nice bonus but at 90mg a week and given I was already advanced in my training after over 35 years I wasn’t expecting much if anything in this area.
For those taking 200mg plus you might be right, but at low doses it would seem a rather short sighted strategy to think it will do much for size and strength.

 

It's funny how most of those taking deca alongside test for TRT have a desire to pack on a bit more muscle; which leads me to the opinion that this is the main reason for administering.

Not that I'm knocking them for it, but it's true in most cases.

Lol who doesn’t want to put on more muscle?

 

Lol who doesn’t want to put on more muscle?

True, especially when one is past 50 and gaining muscle and keeping the fat off is much more of an uphill battle. Deca did make me literally feel 20 years younger though I had too many complications with it even at 50mg per week. Though when I was a competative bodybuilder 25 years ago 400mg per week on a bulking phase I had no such problems. Even pushing over 125mg of test weekly I can't handle any more.

 

True, especially when one is past 50 and gaining muscle and keeping the fat off is much more of an uphill battle. Deca did make me literally feel 20 years younger though I had too many complications with it even at 50mg per week. Though when I was a competative bodybuilder 25 years ago 400mg per week on a bulking phase I had no such problems. Even pushing over 125mg of test weekly I can't handle any more.

I'm 33, what kind of complications do you have on 50mg. I take 60 mg a week

 

Mostly higher hematocrit, increased aggression and prostate problems.

 

@JimGainz what were your creatinine levels before and after. Do you think your creatinine levels will stay down even off the deca?

For years I was around 1.39-1.44 creatinine. I wasn’t overly concerned because I lift weights and I am 6'1 about 208 pounds -however it was significantly higher than what I am used to. After the first cycle deca it went down to 1.28 - my next labs three months off was 1.21 after my last cycle and then off for three months it was 1.16 so yes it definitely had a continued effect.

 

I’ve been on 60mg/week Deca for 5 months now to help with my elbow joint pain. I had bone spurs removed 8 years ago and have to cartilage left. It’s helped with the pain some, so I can work out. I’ve have high Hemo, for years, but the Deca hasn’t raised it anymore

 

Lol who doesn’t want to put on more muscle?

"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general." Mark Rippetoe

 

the amount of anxiety deca has caused for me is unbearable. Also my temper is to volatile. Libido has dropped significantly. I am ready for this to be out of system.