Testosterone in Atrevis base = almost double test levels!

Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
We have PK data from Androgel and Testim. Blood levels tend to stabilize after steady state 5 days after starting. There are fluctuations during the day but they g be become less pronounced with time.

You could do your own PK experiment by buying two or three T tests and get blood drawn a few hours apart.
 

madman

Super Moderator
The question is do they crash (or at least fall to baseline) between hours 16 and 24, potentially causing you to wake up feeling like garbage? As you noted, we don't seem to have studies that measure levels 24 hours post-application.

It's also worth pondering how scrotal application might affect these numbers. We know transdermal testosterone absorbs much more efficiently through the scrotum due to its thin skin and high vascularity. But is it also possible that the same factors shorten the release time, necessitating the more frequent dosing?

A 25 mg dose maintained serum T concentration within the physiological range for almost 24 h.

Most men are using much higher doses such as 100-200 mg/application.

Where your SHBG sits, the dose used, and how well you absorb the T will have a significant impact on TT/FT level achieved.

Even then the only way to know where your T level truly sits on such protocol (once daily scrotal AM application) is to test at peak (2 hrs post-application) and true trough (24 hrs).

If you are willing to spend the $$$ I would test at 2 hrs, and 24 hrs post-application, and in order to do such, you would need to apply the T cream around 9 am.

Would be interesting to see where levels sit at 2 hr, 12 hr, and 24 hr but highly doubtful any labs operate from 7 am-9 pm.




DISCUSSION

This study provides a pharmacokinetic profile of three doses of testosterone administered to the scrotal skin in a cream formulation. Application of the testosterone cream produced a rapid rise in serum testosterone peaking around 2 h after administration with a dose-dependent peak concentration, but not any consistent relationship between time of peak and testosterone dose. At the lowest dose (12.5 mg), the serum testosterone concentrations were maintained in the physiological range for at least 12 h and with the 25 mg dose maintained serum testosterone concentrations within the physiological range for nearly 24 h concentration.
 

Weasel

Member
A 25 mg dose maintained serum T concentration within the physiological range for almost 24 h.

Most men are using much higher doses such as 100-200 mg/application.

Where your SHBG sits, the dose used, and how well you absorb the T will have a significant impact on TT/FT level achieved.

Even then the only way to know where your T level truly sits on such protocol (once daily scrotal AM application) is to test at peak (2 hrs post-application) and true trough (24 hrs).

If you are willing to spend the $$$ I would test at 2 hrs, and 24 hrs post-application, and in order to do such, you would need to apply the T cream around 9 am.

Would be interesting to see where levels sit at 2 hr, 12 hr, and 24 hr but highly doubtful any labs operate from 7 am-9 pm.




DISCUSSION

This study provides a pharmacokinetic profile of three doses of testosterone administered to the scrotal skin in a cream formulation. Application of the testosterone cream produced a rapid rise in serum testosterone peaking around 2 h after administration with a dose-dependent peak concentration, but not any consistent relationship between time of peak and testosterone dose. At the lowest dose (12.5 mg), the serum testosterone concentrations were maintained in the physiological range for at least 12 h and with the 25 mg dose maintained serum testosterone concentrations within the physiological range for nearly 24 h concentration.
Another excellent find Madman.
 

sammmy

Active Member
While valuable, the study cited by Madman, shows what we already know:
1. testosterone application on scrotum is about 10 times more absorbed than on stomach.
2. scrotum application increases DHT to insane levels.

Point 2 is considered dangerous for long term with side effects and that is why scrotal testosterone is NOT recommended.

The Discussion section in the article tries to BS around it:
The clinical significance of such increased DHT/T ratio, common to all non‐parenteral routes of testosterone administration, is doubtful as studies maintained circulating DHT levels of 10 times the physiological concentrations for up to 2 years without increasing prostate size or growth or any adverse sequelae (Idan et al., 2010)

However, reading the abstract by Idan et al, it turns out that this was a study of transdermal DHT, which "suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels." - effectively DHT was substituting for Testosterone and prostate increased without circulating Testosterone i.e. solely due to DHT. This is NOT the same situation as the scrotal testosterone study, which has BOTH testoterone and ultra high DHT present with expected doubled side effects.
 
Last edited:

Trip McNeely

New Member
While valuable, the study cited by Madman, shows what we already know:
1. testosterone application on scrotum is about 10 times more absorbed than on stomach.
2. scrotum application increases DHT to insane levels.

Point 2 is considered dangerous for long term with side effects and that is why scrotal testosterone is NOT recommended.

The Discussion section in the article tries to BS around it:


However, reading the abstract by Idan et al, it turns out that this was a study of transdermal DHT, which "suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels." - effectively DHT was substituting for Testosterone and prostate increased without circulating Testosterone i.e. solely due to DHT. This is NOT the same situation as the scrotal testosterone study, which has BOTH testoterone and ultra high DHT present with expected doubled side effects.
Not recommended by who? And where are the studies showing that elevated DHT from scrotal cream causes side-effects? All you've done is try to poke a hole in a study showing no adverse effects from DHT.
 

sammmy

Active Member
Not recommended by who? And where are the studies showing that elevated DHT from scrotal cream causes side-effects? All you've done is try to poke a hole in a study showing no adverse effects from DHT.

Manufacturers of transdermal testosterone do NOT recommend applying to scrotum. Androgel says it clearly in the instructions, but who has time to read it:
Rub the gel onto upper arms and shoulders – areas that are normally covered by a short-sleeve T-shirt. Do not apply AndroGel 1.62% to any other parts of your body, such as your stomach area (abdomen), penis, scrotum, chest, armpits (axillae), or knees.

The study in which I "tried to poke a hole", clearly shows that prostate increased in two groups: control group with no intervention due to natural testosterone levels, and intervention group in which testosterone was suppressed due to exogenous DHT. So clearly DHT by itself, without testosterone causes prostate increase. Now guess what happens when you have natural testosterone levels plus 10 times natural levels of DHT when you apply on scrotum ...

But hey, break your head in the wall if you want to.
 

Fortunate

Member
I have seen a few people using the gel. I just ordered it myself. Wonder if we can get some feedback here from anyone else using it? I don't think I need "more" testosterone, but I am wondering if the pharmocokinetics will be better for me than cream. For some reason, I don't feel the effects of the cream for 8-10 hours after application, but I definitely feel it. I am OK reducing the dose if more is absorbed. I just want it to absorb quicker.
 

Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
@Nelson Vergel why did you stop the hcg?
Are you going back on the hcg? How did you feel combining the hcg and cream?
Yes, without hCG my nuts are raisins LOL Imagine being on TRT since 1992. Plus a few years on and off nandrolone or oxandrolone. Testicular atrophy does not forgive and there is absolutely nothing that works except hCG. Some guys may not worry or care about testicular size, but I do! hCG also boosts my sex drive, although the scrotal hydrogel T cream seems to be doing OK in that department.
 

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