Testosterone in Atrevis hydrogel base = almost double test levels!

[Nelson Vergel]

We have PK data from Androgel and Testim. Blood levels tend to stabilize after steady state 5 days after starting. There are fluctuations during the day but they g be become less pronounced with time.

You could do your own PK experiment by buying two or three T tests and get blood drawn a few hours apart.

 

[SSHSSA74]

22 hours after

What is your usual SHBG level?

 

[madman]

The question is do they crash (or at least fall to baseline) between hours 16 and 24, potentially causing you to wake up feeling like garbage? As you noted, we don't seem to have studies that measure levels 24 hours post-application.

It's also worth pondering how scrotal application might affect these numbers. We know transdermal testosterone absorbs much more efficiently through the scrotum due to its thin skin and high vascularity. But is it also possible that the same factors shorten the release time, necessitating the more frequent dosing?

A 25 mg dose maintained serum T concentration within the physiological range for almost 24 h.

Most men are using much higher doses such as 100-200 mg/application.

Where your SHBG sits, the dose used, and how well you absorb the T will have a significant impact on TT/FT level achieved.

Even then the only way to know where your T level truly sits on such protocol (once daily scrotal AM application) is to test at peak (2 hrs post-application) and true trough (24 hrs).

If you are willing to spend the $$$ I would test at 2 hrs, and 24 hrs post-application, and in order to do such, you would need to apply the T cream around 9 am.

Would be interesting to see where levels sit at 2 hr, 12 hr, and 24 hr but highly doubtful any labs operate from 7 am-9 pm.




DISCUSSION

This study provides a pharmacokinetic profile of three doses of testosterone administered to the scrotal skin in a cream formulation. Application of the testosterone cream produced a rapid rise in serum testosterone peaking around 2 h after administration with a dose-dependent peak concentration, but not any consistent relationship between time of peak and testosterone dose. At the lowest dose (12.5 mg), the serum testosterone concentrations were maintained in the physiological range for at least 12 h and with the 25 mg dose maintained serum testosterone concentrations within the physiological range for nearly 24 h concentration.

 

[Weasel]

A 25 mg dose maintained serum T concentration within the physiological range for almost 24 h.

Most men are using much higher doses such as 100-200 mg/application.

Where your SHBG sits, the dose used, and how well you absorb the T will have a significant impact on TT/FT level achieved.

Even then the only way to know where your T level truly sits on such protocol (once daily scrotal AM application) is to test at peak (2 hrs post-application) and true trough (24 hrs).

If you are willing to spend the $$$ I would test at 2 hrs, and 24 hrs post-application, and in order to do such, you would need to apply the T cream around 9 am.

Would be interesting to see where levels sit at 2 hr, 12 hr, and 24 hr but highly doubtful any labs operate from 7 am-9 pm.




DISCUSSION

This study provides a pharmacokinetic profile of three doses of testosterone administered to the scrotal skin in a cream formulation. Application of the testosterone cream produced a rapid rise in serum testosterone peaking around 2 h after administration with a dose-dependent peak concentration, but not any consistent relationship between time of peak and testosterone dose. At the lowest dose (12.5 mg), the serum testosterone concentrations were maintained in the physiological range for at least 12 h and with the 25 mg dose maintained serum testosterone concentrations within the physiological range for nearly 24 h concentration.

Another excellent find Madman.

 

[sammmy]

While valuable, the study cited by Madman, shows what we already know:
1. testosterone application on scrotum is about 10 times more absorbed than on stomach.
2. scrotum application increases DHT to insane levels.

Point 2 is considered dangerous for long term with side effects and that is why scrotal testosterone is NOT recommended.

The Discussion section in the article tries to BS around it:

The clinical significance of such increased DHT/T ratio, common to all non‐parenteral routes of testosterone administration, is doubtful as studies maintained circulating DHT levels of 10 times the physiological concentrations for up to 2 years without increasing prostate size or growth or any adverse sequelae (Idan et al., 2010)

However, reading the abstract by Idan et al, it turns out that this was a study of transdermal DHT, which "suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels." - effectively DHT was substituting for Testosterone and prostate increased without circulating Testosterone i.e. solely due to DHT. This is NOT the same situation as the scrotal testosterone study, which has BOTH testoterone and ultra high DHT present with expected doubled side effects.

 

[Trip McNeely]

While valuable, the study cited by Madman, shows what we already know:
1. testosterone application on scrotum is about 10 times more absorbed than on stomach.
2. scrotum application increases DHT to insane levels.

Point 2 is considered dangerous for long term with side effects and that is why scrotal testosterone is NOT recommended.

The Discussion section in the article tries to BS around it:


However, reading the abstract by Idan et al, it turns out that this was a study of transdermal DHT, which "suppressed serum testosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone levels." - effectively DHT was substituting for Testosterone and prostate increased without circulating Testosterone i.e. solely due to DHT. This is NOT the same situation as the scrotal testosterone study, which has BOTH testoterone and ultra high DHT present with expected doubled side effects.

Not recommended by who? And where are the studies showing that elevated DHT from scrotal cream causes side-effects? All you've done is try to poke a hole in a study showing no adverse effects from DHT.

 

[sammmy]

Not recommended by who? And where are the studies showing that elevated DHT from scrotal cream causes side-effects? All you've done is try to poke a hole in a study showing no adverse effects from DHT.

Manufacturers of transdermal testosterone do NOT recommend applying to scrotum. Androgel says it clearly in the instructions, but who has time to read it:

Rub the gel onto upper arms and shoulders – areas that are normally covered by a short-sleeve T-shirt. Do not apply AndroGel 1.62% to any other parts of your body, such as your stomach area (abdomen), penis, scrotum, chest, armpits (axillae), or knees.

The study in which I "tried to poke a hole", clearly shows that prostate increased in two groups: control group with no intervention due to natural testosterone levels, and intervention group in which testosterone was suppressed due to exogenous DHT. So clearly DHT by itself, without testosterone causes prostate increase. Now guess what happens when you have natural testosterone levels plus 10 times natural levels of DHT when you apply on scrotum ...

But hey, break your head in the wall if you want to.

 

[Fortunate]

I have seen a few people using the gel. I just ordered it myself. Wonder if we can get some feedback here from anyone else using it? I don't think I need "more" testosterone, but I am wondering if the pharmocokinetics will be better for me than cream. For some reason, I don't feel the effects of the cream for 8-10 hours after application, but I definitely feel it. I am OK reducing the dose if more is absorbed. I just want it to absorb quicker.

 

[Abuser200]

@Nelson Vergel why did you stop the hcg?
Are you going back on the hcg? How did you feel combining the hcg and cream?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

@Nelson Vergel why did you stop the hcg?
Are you going back on the hcg? How did you feel combining the hcg and cream?

Yes, without hCG my nuts are raisins LOL Imagine being on TRT since 1992. Plus a few years on and off nandrolone or oxandrolone. Testicular atrophy does not forgive and there is absolutely nothing that works except hCG. Some guys may not worry or care about testicular size, but I do! hCG also boosts my sex drive, although the scrotal hydrogel T cream seems to be doing OK in that department.

 

[Smokey]

Yes, without hCG my nuts are raisins LOL Imagine being on TRT since 1992. Plus a few years on and off nandrolone or oxandrolone. Testicular atrophy does not forgive and there is absolutely nothing that works except hCG. Some guys may not worry or care about testicular size, but I do! hCG also boosts my sex drive, although the scrotal hydrogel T cream seems to be doing OK in that department.

Nelson, did you happen to test your sensitive estrogen levels? Kust curious because my estro levels jumped up to 67 on the scrotal cream application. Thanks!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Yes, ultrasensitive E2 jumped to 90, which is the highest I have ever had it (I usually run low E2 and have never taken anastrozole). I really believe this higher E2 is what is making my libido through the roof.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, ultrasensitive E2 jumped to 90, which is the highest I have ever had it (I usually run low E2 and have never taken anastrozole). I really believe this higher E2 is what is making my libido through the roof.

wow! so are you good with that or are changes in store?

 

[Smokey]

Yes, ultrasensitive E2 jumped to 90, which is the highest I have ever had it (I usually run low E2 and have never taken anastrozole). I really believe this higher E2 is what is making my libido through the roof.

I experienced the high libido as well but along with it came ED issues and pre ejac issues so it did not work out. In the beginning erections were better than ever and that slowly declined over a few months.

 

[Trip McNeely]

I experienced the high libido as well but along with it came ED issues and pre ejac issues so it did not work out. In the beginning erections were better than ever and that slowly declined over a few months.

High libido but difficulty staying hard or lasting more than a few minutes is usually a sign that you're one of those guys who can't tolerate high E2. A tiny dose of an AI (try 1/16th of a milligram to start) every 2-3 days should take care of the ED/PE issues while preserving the libido. Don't listen to the broscience bros like Danny Bro-ssa who claim that letting E2 run free is a panacea for everyone. We're all different.

 

[DS3]

High libido but difficulty staying hard or lasting more than a few minutes is usually a sign that you're one of those guys who can't tolerate high E2. A tiny dose of an AI (try 1/16th of a milligram to start) every 2-3 days should take care of the ED/PE issues while preserving the libido. Don't listen to the broscience bros like Danny Bro-ssa who claim that letting E2 run free is a panacea for everyone. We're all different.

Can you provide resources for this? I am interested to see this data.

 

[Smokey]

High libido but difficulty staying hard or lasting more than a few minutes is usually a sign that you're one of those guys who can't tolerate high E2. A tiny dose of an AI (try 1/16th of a milligram to start) every 2-3 days should take care of the ED/PE issues while preserving the libido. Don't listen to the broscience bros like Danny Bro-ssa who claim that letting E2 run free is a panacea for everyone. We're all different.

Thanks for the suggestion trip. I have tried .15 of a milligram before but seemed to dry my joints out and I felt old in the body when moving around. I did not stay on for more than two weeks so my AI sides may have improved

 

[Michael D]

@txmx

Empower had not trained all the pharmacist. But as of today, they all will be notified about the Atrevis hydrogel.
I have a a friend who is using it on the scrotum and loving it.

I am going to start using it on Monday and let you guys know what happens to my T level and libido. I need to do a baseline Total and Free T and also DHT first. I will stop 50 mg twice per week T injections and hCG as of Thurs.

The script should be faxed to Empower Pharmacy as

Testosterone 200ml/ml cream in Hydrogel base 30ML , Apply 1 ML on scrotum daily. 3 refills

Nelson, the prescription you suggest states 1ml per day. In this thread you said you're using "4 clicks per day;" is that the equivalent of 1 ml or 4 ml?

 

[madman]

Nelson, the prescription you suggest states 1ml per day. In this thread you said you're using "4 clicks per day;" is that the equivalent of 1 ml or 4 ml?

1 click = .25 mL (1/4 mL)


Testosterone Cream strength 200 mg/mL 30 mL Topi-Click Dispenser

Topi-CLICK

Introduction: The Topi-CLICK is a device that is often used to apply creams and thin ointments to the skin


• Benefits of using the Topi-CLICK device:

o The Topi-CLICK device allows accurate & precise dosing, with one click providing 0.25 mL of medication which allows for small doses of medication and small changes in your dose. This allows your provider to customize your dose to meet your individual needs. o The unique clicking mechanism provides a click that you can hear, see, and feel with each turn. This lets you know that you have used the right dose every time.

o The Topi-CLICK can be used to apply your medication directly to your skin, reducing mess and the risk of accidental exposure to others.

o On the device is a refill line to remind you to call us when your refill is due.


• Limitations of using the Topi-CLICK device:

o If you have difficulty hearing or feeling the click of the medication as you turn the device, this may not be the ideal way for us to dispense your medication.

If you have any difficulties using the Topi-CLICK device please contact us.




Dispenser Volume: Up to 37 mL
Delivery Volume: 5 mL – 30 mL
Dispense/CLICK: 0.25 mL
Approx. Residual: 2.5 mL
Approx. Priming: 0.25 mL or 1 CLICK



You can clearly see how effective 4 clicks of the 200 mg/mL strength is!

TT 1300+ but more importantly FT is very high.

 

[Michael D]

Thanks for the clarification!