Short vs long esters

Hello. I very much hope the great people and expertise in this forum to be able to help me. And my case is quite complicated.

As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way that worries me because it is FAMILIAR. Last summer I was on enanthate on a very different protocol and had way lower test levels than now. But now I experience VERY SIMILAR negative to the last summer when I tried 8-9 weeks of enanthate.

The negative I experience is APATHY and SLUGGISHNESS. Hard to explain, but every time I've tried a protocol on this enanthate and one time I tried 8 weeks on UGL cypionate(no pharma cyp here) I felt these negatives. BASICALLY EVERY TIME I"VE TRIED A SINGLE LONG ESTER. And I've tried different dosages, different test levels, IM and sub q(sub q felt even worse). Very different than how you are supposed to feel on testosterone, right?

Only on sustanon I have felt well being, a sense of joy and also inner motivation and drive and emotional energy. Why I wanted to try enanthate again and got off sustanon? - Too much injections. I need to inject the sustanon often to feel stable and sub q doesnt work for me, especially on sustanon - levels are much lower and every injection creates a terrible nodule. So I NEED to inject IM. Daily and even EOD deep IM injections suck. Pain and scar tissue build up quickly and I guess I can be more sensitive to that. And on enanthate injecting 2 times a week is great in terms of scar tissue, pain and so on.

Apart from injection frequency seemingly I feel better on the sustanon in terms of mood and well being. On the other hand sleep and apetite are worse on sustanon.

Now I will not give up on the enanthate so quickly. I will lower my dose with 10mg(130mg weekly now, current total t is 1450+, SHBG 30, albumin 4.5) weekly and I will order from abroad different pharma enanthate with different oil(castor). The enanthate I use now is with olive oil.

Do you think the oil my play something in the sluggishness or apathy I feel on this product?
Or more likely the sustanon with the multi esters somehow stimulates my nervous system and this results in a sense of well being? Like described in this video

I read here people use propionate with long esters. In my country no pharma propionate is available, I can order only from UGL website, but again this means daily injections which will bring me back to the issue I had with pharmaceutically available here sustanon initially.

On TRT I've never had issues with high blood counts or high e2 symptoms, what most people complain of. In terms of markers upon protocol change I get elevated iron, my bilirubin is always high since before TRT, IGF-1 is a bit over the top of the range(around 270-280) and progesterone seems high, 0,2-0,3 ng/ml. It was 0,2 ng/ml even before starting TRT, seems I've been a big progesteron converter to begin with. Im working to setup a consultation online with a knowledgeable US doctor, the endocrinologists that has prescribed my treatment here is a great person, but doesnt have the expertise to tackle any of my issues.

What would you do if you were on my place?

I know madman said when trying a new protocol one needs to wait a few months, but every time Ive started sustanon things happen in a matter of weeks for me... And also what I've read from the forums and heard from the knowledgeable doctors 7-8 weeks they say is enough time to asses a protocol. To be honest I just want to find a protocol that works for me and focus on other things in my life and forget about all this TRT stuff :( I feel mentally tired of all this...
 
Last edited:

madman

Super Moderator
Hello. I very much hope the great people and expertise in this forum to be able to help me. And my case is quite complicated.

As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way that worries me because it is FAMILIAR. Last summer I was on enanthate on a very different protocol and had way lower test levels than now. But now I experience VERY SIMILAR negative to the last summer when I tried 8-9 weeks of enanthate.

The negative I experience is APATHY and SLUGGISHNESS. Hard to explain, but every time I've tried a protocol on this enanthate and one time I tried 8 weeks on UGL cypionate(no pharma cyp here) I felt these negatives. BASICALLY EVERY TIME I"VE TRIED A SINGLE LONG ESTER. And I've tried different dosages, different test levels, IM and sub q(sub q felt even worse). Very different than how you are supposed to feel on testosterone, right?

Only on sustanon I have felt well being, a sense of joy and also inner motivation and drive and emotional energy. Why I wanted to try enanthate again and got off sustanon? - Too much injections. I need to inject the sustanon often to feel stable and sub q doesnt work for me, especially on sustanon - levels are much lower and every injection creates a terrible nodule. So I NEED to inject IM. Daily and even EOD deep IM injections suck. Pain and scar tissue build up quickly and I guess I can be more sensitive to that. And on enanthate injecting 2 times a week is great in terms of scar tissue, pain and so on.

Apart from injection frequency seemingly I feel better on the sustanon in terms of mood and well being. On the other hand sleep and apetite are worse on sustanon.

Now I will not give up on the enanthate so quickly. I will lower my dose with 10mg(130mg weekly now, current total t is 1450+, SHBG 30, albumin 4.5) weekly and I will order from abroad different pharma enanthate with different oil(castor). The enanthate I use now is with olive oil.

Do you think the oil my play something in the sluggishness or apathy I feel on this product?
Or more likely the sustanon with the multi esters somehow stimulates my nervous system and this results in a sense of well being? Like described in this video

I read here people use propionate with long esters. In my country no pharma propionate is available, I can order only from UGL website, but again this means daily injections which will bring me back to the issue I had with pharmaceutically available here sustanon initially.

On TRT I've never had issues with high blood counts or high e2 symptoms, what most people complain of. In terms of markers upon protocol change I get elevated iron, my bilirubin is always high since before TRT, IGF-1 is a bit over the top of the range(around 270-280) and progesterone seems high, 0,2-0,3 ng/ml. It was 0,2 ng/ml even before starting TRT, seems I've been a big progesteron converter to begin with. Im working to setup a consultation online with a knowledgeable US doctor, the endocrinologists that has prescribed my treatment here is a great person, but doesnt have the expertise to tackle any of my issues.

What would you do if you were on my place?

I know madman said when trying a new protocol one needs to wait a few months, but every time Ive started sustanon things happen in a matter of weeks for me... And also what I've read from the forums and heard from the knowledgeable doctors 7-8 weeks they say is enough time to asses a protocol. To be honest I just want to find a protocol that works for me and focus on other things in my life and forget about all this TRT stuff :( I feel mentally tired of all this...

As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way that worries me because it is FAMILIAR. Last summer I was on enanthate on a very different protocol and had way lower test levels than now. But now I experience VERY SIMILAR negative to the last summer when I tried 8-9 weeks of enanthate.

The negative I experience is APATHY and SLUGGISHNESS. Hard to explain, but every time I've tried a protocol on this enanthate and one time I tried 8 weeks on UGL cypionate(no pharma cyp here) I felt these negatives.
BASICALLY EVERY TIME I"VE TRIED A SINGLE LONG ESTER. And I've tried different dosages, different test levels, IM and sub q(sub q felt even worse). Very different than how you are supposed to feel on testosterone, right?

I know madman said when trying a new protocol one needs to wait a few months, but every time Ive started sustanon things happen in a matter of weeks for me... And also what I've read from the forums and heard from the knowledgeable doctors 7-8 weeks they say is enough time to asses a protocol. To be honest I just want to find a protocol that works for me and focus on other things in my life and forget about all this TRT stuff :( I feel mentally tired of all this...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again think what you will and as I have stated numerous times the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture.

Hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels STABILIZE (4-6 weeks when using enanthate/cypionate esters) during this transition the body is trying to ADJUST and even then once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt and this is the CRITICAL TIME PERIOD when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

The first 6 let alone 8 weeks are misleading and where many make the mistake of trying to gauge how they feel and whether the protocol was a success or failure!

Unfortunately, most expect to feel great overall 6 weeks in let alone experience the overall beneficial effects of healthy T levels and if such is not the case they go bat shit and start tweaking a f**king protocol (dose T/injection frequency), ester, IM to sub-q or vice versa.....you get the point a complete f**king mess, to say the least.

Top it all off that many have the herd mentality.....more T is better or the sob story.....I need to run absurdly high TT/FT levels to feel good and start jacking up their T-dose 6 weeks in because they do not feel well.

Looking over all your threads on here it is highly doubtful you have ever given your protocols a fighting chance.

On your current protocol, you are running an absurdly high trough TT which would have your trough FT through the roof, and if anything you need to look into lowering your T-dose let alone now you will have to wait another 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize than 2-3 months to gauge how you truly feel overall.

If you are not willing to put in the time then you are going to be chasing your tail endlessly getting caught up on that never-ending merry-go-round.

Bad enough that many of the misinformed are so caught up in chasing/finding that so-called optimal.

See it all the time here on the forum.

People ranting/raving about a protocol and how they feel yet in many cases:

*blood work is done too early (2-3 weeks of starting a protocol)

*switching their protocols (dose T/injection frequency), esters, IM to sub-q or vice versa left and right every 6 weeks if they do not feel good/great.

*blood work is done using inaccurate assays especially when it comes to free testosterone let alone e2.

*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*high T = raging libido/titanium erections


*high T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine.....LMFAO.

Last but not least and the one that truly puts the icing on the cake

*Lack the understanding of how exogenous T works.

Hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels STABILIZE (4-6 weeks when using enanthate/cypionate esters) during this transition the body is trying to ADJUST and even then once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt and this is the CRITICAL TIME PERIOD when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know madman said when trying a new protocol one needs to wait a few months, but every time Ive started sustanon things happen in a matter of weeks for me... And also what I've read from the forums and heard from the knowledgeable doctors 7-8 weeks they say is enough time to asses a protocol.



Most doctors in the know would wait 12 weeks after starting a protocol or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

When blood work is done 6 weeks in we want to know how one reacts to T dose and where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has trough TT/FT/e2 levels let alone other blood markers as T levels may be too high or too low.

If T levels are healthy and one feels descent then you would need to give it a few months to truly gauge how you feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

If T levels are too low resulting in a lack of any improvement then the dose of T would be increased.

If T levels are too high resulting in one feeling unwell/experiencing sides then the dose of T would be lowered.

Sure during the first 6 weeks of starting trt let alone tweaking a protocol, it is common for many during this transition to experience what we call the honeymoon period where there may be a strong increase in libido/erections and overall euphoric feeling due to increasing T levels/dopamine.

Unfortunately, this is temporary and short-lived for most as the body will eventually adjust.

It is also very common for many men to experience ups/downs in energy/mood/libido/erections/recovery during the transition as the body is trying to adjust which can be very misleading.
 

madman

Super Moderator


Overlooked let alone misunderstood by many!



26.What is a reasonable timeline to begin to observe improvements in the signs and symptoms of testosterone deficiency?

*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD.76,77 As such, patients should be counseled that symptom response will not be immediate. Expectations for treatment response should be established with each patient. Patients can anticipate improvements in many of the common symptoms of TD (libido, energy levels, sexual function) after 3 months of treatment or longer. Metabolic and structural (body composition, muscle mass, bone density) changes may take upwards of 6-months. 77 In addition, patients should be counseled that diet and exercise in combination with testosterone therapy are recommended for body composition changes.

*Appreciating this pattern of response to testosterone therapy is fundamental when determining the impact of treatment and the appropriate timing of follow-up evaluations while on therapy. For example, if patients undergo a symptom review and measurement of testosterone levels too early (< 3 months), it may lead both physicians and patients to conclude that the treatment has not been impactful (i.e. normal levels of testosterone without symptomatic/structural/metabolic benefit). However, if the same assessment was scheduled 3-6 months after the initiation of therapy, the clinical response tends to be more reflective of normalized levels of serum testosterone.
 

madman

Super Moderator
As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way that worries me because it is FAMILIAR. Last summer I was on enanthate on a very different protocol and had way lower test levels than now. But now I experience VERY SIMILAR negative to the last summer when I tried 8-9 weeks of enanthate.

The negative I experience is APATHY and SLUGGISHNESS. Hard to explain, but every time I've tried a protocol on this enanthate and one time I tried 8 weeks on UGL cypionate(no pharma cyp here) I felt these negatives.
BASICALLY EVERY TIME I"VE TRIED A SINGLE LONG ESTER. And I've tried different dosages, different test levels, IM and sub q(sub q felt even worse). Very different than how you are supposed to feel on testosterone, right?

I know madman said when trying a new protocol one needs to wait a few months, but every time Ive started sustanon things happen in a matter of weeks for me... And also what I've read from the forums and heard from the knowledgeable doctors 7-8 weeks they say is enough time to asses a protocol. To be honest I just want to find a protocol that works for me and focus on other things in my life and forget about all this TRT stuff :( I feel mentally tired of all this...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again think what you will and as I have stated numerous times the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture.

Hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels STABILIZE (4-6 weeks when using enanthate/cypionate esters) during this transition the body is trying to ADJUST and even then once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt and this is the CRITICAL TIME PERIOD when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.

The first 6 let alone 8 weeks are misleading and where many make the mistake of trying to gauge how they feel and whether the protocol was a success or failure!

Unfortunately, most expect to feel great overall 6 weeks in let alone experience the overall beneficial effects of healthy T levels and if such is not the case they go bat shit and start tweaking a f**king protocol (dose T/injection frequency), ester, IM to sub-q or vice versa.....you get the point a complete f**king mess, to say the least.

Top it all off that many have the herd mentality.....more T is better or the sob story.....I need to run absurdly high TT/FT levels to feel good and start jacking up their T-dose 6 weeks in because they do not feel well.

Looking over all your threads on here it is highly doubtful you have ever given your protocols a fighting chance.

On your current protocol, you are running an absurdly high trough TT which would have your trough FT through the roof, and if anything you need to look into lowering your T-dose let alone now you will have to wait another 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize than 2-3 months to gauge how you truly feel overall.

If you are not willing to put in the time then you are going to be chasing your tail endlessly getting caught up on that never-ending merry-go-round.

Bad enough that many of the misinformed are so caught up in chasing/finding that so-called optimal.

See it all the time here on the forum.

People ranting/raving about a protocol and how they feel yet in many cases:

*blood work is done too early (2-3 weeks of starting a protocol)

*switching their protocols (dose T/injection frequency), esters, IM to sub-q or vice versa left and right every 6 weeks if they do not feel good/great.

*blood work is done using inaccurate assays especially when it comes to free testosterone let alone e2.

*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*high T = raging libido/titanium erections


*high T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine.....LMFAO.

Last but not least and the one that truly puts the icing on the cake

*Lack the understanding of how exogenous T works.

Hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels STABILIZE (4-6 weeks when using enanthate/cypionate esters) during this transition the body is trying to ADJUST and even then once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt and this is the CRITICAL TIME PERIOD when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know madman said when trying a new protocol one needs to wait a few months, but every time Ive started sustanon things happen in a matter of weeks for me... And also what I've read from the forums and heard from the knowledgeable doctors 7-8 weeks they say is enough time to asses a protocol.



Most doctors in the know would wait 12 weeks after starting a protocol or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

When blood work is done 6 weeks in we want to know how one reacts to T dose and where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has trough TT/FT/e2 levels let alone other blood markers as T levels may be too high or too low.

If T levels are healthy and one feels descent then you would need to give it a few months to truly gauge how you feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

If T levels are too low resulting in a lack of any improvement then the dose of T would be increased.

If T levels are too high resulting in one feeling unwell/experiencing sides then the dose of T would be lowered.

Sure during the first 6 weeks of starting trt let alone tweaking a protocol, it is common for many during this transition to experience what we call the honeymoon period where there may be a strong increase in libido/erections and overall euphoric feeling due to increasing T levels/dopamine.

Unfortunately, this is temporary and short-lived for most as the body will eventually adjust.

It is also very common for many men to experience ups/downs in energy/mood/libido/erections/recovery during the transition as the body is trying to adjust which can be very misleading.
If you want to turn a blind eye.....go nuts!

*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD.
 
If T levels are healthy and one feels descent then you would need to give it a few months to truly gauge how you feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

If T levels are too low resulting in a lack of any improvement then the dose of T would be increased.

If T levels are too high resulting in one feeling unwell/experiencing sides then the dose of T would be lowered.
I really understand all the points you are making and try correlate them to my case. But I also try to cross-reference them with the content I've seen or read online from the experienced TRT physicians, the use-cases of people I've read on the forums and the studies I've seen. I dont want to show disrespect, just want to further elaborate on some of the things you are saying regarding my specific case. As a start I can tell you for sure my body reacts very different than most of the people regarding HRT. I envy the people who just inject 200mg of test once a week and feel awesome. I know the majority of TRT users are like that, or at least I've met online a lot and in person few of them.

With that being said I have a few questions for you:

If every protocol is needed to be given 2-3 months to asses after the initial 8 weeks, what would be the reason when I started TRT with sustanon in November 2019 I got very quick huge improvements in the means of 2-4 weeks, and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change?

I think this was the first pitfall. I know you are proponent of sub-q injections, but when my stomach was full of nodules everywhere my levels fell with 40 percent and the way I felt transferred from from God-like to like pre-TRT.

I then tried sub-q enanthate(8 weeks) and shallow IM UGL cyionate protocol(8 weeks) achieving levels of 800-1000 when for the corresponding dose of 160mg per week I was expecting at least 1300. Also I felt way worse on enan and cyp compared to the sustanon on the fallen levels.
When my levels on sustanon fell I just started to feel pretty much like before TRT, but on the long single esters I felt UNKNOWN apathy and sluggishness and the further I was getting into their protocols the worse I felt, to the point in the last week of the sub-q enanthate protocol I was falling asleep at work and almost got kicked out of my job. After that I tried scrotal cream, held on that only 3-4 weeks because I got from it terrible unheard of before anxiety and panic attacks, I've never had panic attacks in my life.

Then somebody suggested to me to try sustanon IM and at that point my test levels climbed quickly and the way I felt abruptly improved. I quickly got improvements, in a matter of 3-4 weeks even less and started to feel really great, not like the first 2-3 months of TRT, but lets say 80 percent of that.

And now 2-3 months ago I decided to try to ease my life and reduce a life-long sequence of deep IM injections, which was the whole point of transferring to enanthate. But I experience the same type of sluggishness I got before on the long single esters, this time is not as bad because I guess Im doing IM.

We both agree my test levels are too high, but isnt it expected this to lead to something like agressivness, anxiety, feeling tense, hyped, sleeps issues and so on?
But instead I feel apathy and sluggishness, zero motivation to do anything, to talk to people and so on... Provided this heads that way, do you believe that after 2-3 months of investment of time which would be a terrible tornment for me something magical will happen and at some point I will start feeling completely different?
Investing so much time in feeling sluggish and apathetic is a great investment and it may cost me important things in my life. At that current mental state I feel incapable of dealing with hard and stressful situations and as we know life of everyone has them. My life situation at the moment is relatively easy, but still there are moments from time to time when I need to pull out my best and act accordingly.

Also can you give me some reference for the 2-3 months period like a content from a TRT physicians somewhere online? I mean I've watched most of the content TRT doctors put online, I've watched doctors with contradictory to each other opinions about things like estrogen, HCG and so on but all of them claim to asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks and I've never seen someone mentioning a need to wait another 2-3 months if the patient feels crappy. If there is such reference I will thoroughly examine it. I do not mean to put disrespect to you, just if I'm gonna make a strong investment in something I look for at least 2 credible opinions.

On the other hand provided every time I've started sustanon I GOT QUICK IMPROVEMENTS do you think there might be some action of it that stimulates my endocrine or nervous system to make me feel good, action that is not present from the slow steady release of the single long esters? We know sustanon is very different with all of its downsides like being very difficult to dial in.

Do you also think switching to enanthate with different oil may lead to improvement?

I see some people on this forum combining propionate with cypionate, do you think their cases may have some correlation to mine?
 

Charliebizz

Active Member
I really understand all the points you are making and try correlate them to my case. But I also try to cross-reference them with the content I've seen or read online from the experienced TRT physicians, the use-cases of people I've read on the forums and the studies I've seen. I dont want to show disrespect, just want to further elaborate on some of the things you are saying regarding my specific case. As a start I can tell you for sure my body reacts very different than most of the people regarding HRT. I envy the people who just inject 200mg of test once a week and feel awesome. I know the majority of TRT users are like that, or at least I've met online a lot and in person few of them.

With that being said I have a few questions for you:

If every protocol is needed to be given 2-3 months to asses after the initial 8 weeks, what would be the reason when I started TRT with sustanon in November 2019 I got very quick huge improvements in the means of 2-4 weeks, and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change?

I think this was the first pitfall. I know you are proponent of sub-q injections, but when my stomach was full of nodules everywhere my levels fell with 40 percent and the way I felt transferred from from God-like to like pre-TRT.

I then tried sub-q enanthate(8 weeks) and shallow IM UGL cyionate protocol(8 weeks) achieving levels of 800-1000 when for the corresponding dose of 160mg per week I was expecting at least 1300. Also I felt way worse on enan and cyp compared to the sustanon on the fallen levels.
When my levels on sustanon fell I just started to feel pretty much like before TRT, but on the long single esters I felt UNKNOWN apathy and sluggishness and the further I was getting into their protocols the worse I felt, to the point in the last week of the sub-q enanthate protocol I was falling asleep at work and almost got kicked out of my job. After that I tried scrotal cream, held on that only 3-4 weeks because I got from it terrible unheard of before anxiety and panic attacks, I've never had panic attacks in my life.

Then somebody suggested to me to try sustanon IM and at that point my test levels climbed quickly and the way I felt abruptly improved. I quickly got improvements, in a matter of 3-4 weeks even less and started to feel really great, not like the first 2-3 months of TRT, but lets say 80 percent of that.

And now 2-3 months ago I decided to try to ease my life and reduce a life-long sequence of deep IM injections, which was the whole point of transferring to enanthate. But I experience the same type of sluggishness I got before on the long single esters, this time is not as bad because I guess Im doing IM.

We both agree my test levels are too high, but isnt it expected this to lead to something like agressivness, anxiety, feeling tense, hyped, sleeps issues and so on?
But instead I feel apathy and sluggishness, zero motivation to do anything, to talk to people and so on... Provided this heads that way, do you believe that after 2-3 months of investment of time which would be a terrible tornment for me something magical will happen and at some point I will start feeling completely different?
Investing so much time in feeling sluggish and apathetic is a great investment and it may cost me important things in my life. At that current mental state I feel incapable of dealing with hard and stressful situations and as we know life of everyone has them. My life situation at the moment is relatively easy, but still there are moments from time to time when I need to pull out my best and act accordingly.

Also can you give me some reference for the 2-3 months period like a content from a TRT physicians somewhere online? I mean I've watched most of the content TRT doctors put online, I've watched doctors with contradictory to each other opinions about things like estrogen, HCG and so on but all of them claim to asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks and I've never seen someone mentioning a need to wait another 2-3 months if the patient feels crappy. If there is such reference I will thoroughly examine it. I do not mean to put disrespect to you, just if I'm gonna make a strong investment in something I look for at least 2 credible opinions.

On the other hand provided every time I've started sustanon I GOT QUICK IMPROVEMENTS do you think there might be some action of it that stimulates my endocrine or nervous system to make me feel good, action that is not present from the slow steady release of the single long esters? We know sustanon is very different with all of its downsides like being very difficult to dial in.

Do you also think switching to enanthate with different oil may lead to improvement?

I see some people on this forum combining propionate with cypionate, do you think their cases may have some correlation to mine?
For me personally when my t levels are too high. I get sluggish unmotivated and depressed. Also get this weird pressure like feeling in my head. Hard to describe but very distinct
 

madman

Super Moderator
I really understand all the points you are making and try correlate them to my case. But I also try to cross-reference them with the content I've seen or read online from the experienced TRT physicians, the use-cases of people I've read on the forums and the studies I've seen. I dont want to show disrespect, just want to further elaborate on some of the things you are saying regarding my specific case. As a start I can tell you for sure my body reacts very different than most of the people regarding HRT. I envy the people who just inject 200mg of test once a week and feel awesome. I know the majority of TRT users are like that, or at least I've met online a lot and in person few of them.

With that being said I have a few questions for you:

If every protocol is needed to be given 2-3 months to asses after the initial 8 weeks, what would be the reason when I started TRT with sustanon in November 2019 I got very quick huge improvements in the means of 2-4 weeks, and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change?

I think this was the first pitfall. I know you are proponent of sub-q injections, but when my stomach was full of nodules everywhere my levels fell with 40 percent and the way I felt transferred from from God-like to like pre-TRT.

I then tried sub-q enanthate(8 weeks) and shallow IM UGL cyionate protocol(8 weeks) achieving levels of 800-1000 when for the corresponding dose of 160mg per week I was expecting at least 1300. Also I felt way worse on enan and cyp compared to the sustanon on the fallen levels.
When my levels on sustanon fell I just started to feel pretty much like before TRT, but on the long single esters I felt UNKNOWN apathy and sluggishness and the further I was getting into their protocols the worse I felt, to the point in the last week of the sub-q enanthate protocol I was falling asleep at work and almost got kicked out of my job. After that I tried scrotal cream, held on that only 3-4 weeks because I got from it terrible unheard of before anxiety and panic attacks, I've never had panic attacks in my life.

Then somebody suggested to me to try sustanon IM and at that point my test levels climbed quickly and the way I felt abruptly improved. I quickly got improvements, in a matter of 3-4 weeks even less and started to feel really great, not like the first 2-3 months of TRT, but lets say 80 percent of that.

And now 2-3 months ago I decided to try to ease my life and reduce a life-long sequence of deep IM injections, which was the whole point of transferring to enanthate. But I experience the same type of sluggishness I got before on the long single esters, this time is not as bad because I guess Im doing IM.

We both agree my test levels are too high, but isnt it expected this to lead to something like agressivness, anxiety, feeling tense, hyped, sleeps issues and so on?
But instead I feel apathy and sluggishness, zero motivation to do anything, to talk to people and so on... Provided this heads that way, do you believe that after 2-3 months of investment of time which would be a terrible tornment for me something magical will happen and at some point I will start feeling completely different?
Investing so much time in feeling sluggish and apathetic is a great investment and it may cost me important things in my life. At that current mental state I feel incapable of dealing with hard and stressful situations and as we know life of everyone has them. My life situation at the moment is relatively easy, but still there are moments from time to time when I need to pull out my best and act accordingly.

Also can you give me some reference for the 2-3 months period like a content from a TRT physicians somewhere online? I mean I've watched most of the content TRT doctors put online, I've watched doctors with contradictory to each other opinions about things like estrogen, HCG and so on but all of them claim to asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks and I've never seen someone mentioning a need to wait another 2-3 months if the patient feels crappy. If there is such reference I will thoroughly examine it. I do not mean to put disrespect to you, just if I'm gonna make a strong investment in something I look for at least 2 credible opinions.

On the other hand provided every time I've started sustanon I GOT QUICK IMPROVEMENTS do you think there might be some action of it that stimulates my endocrine or nervous system to make me feel good, action that is not present from the slow steady release of the single long esters? We know sustanon is very different with all of its downsides like being very difficult to dial in.

Do you also think switching to enanthate with different oil may lead to improvement?

I see some people on this forum combining propionate with cypionate, do you think their cases may have some correlation to mine?
If every protocol is needed to be given 2-3 months to asses after the initial 8 weeks, what would be the reason when I started TRT with sustanon in November 2019 I got very quick huge improvements in the means of 2-4 weeks, and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change?

Every protocol should be given 8-12 weeks after the stabilization period (4-6 weeks).

Again there is a lot going on during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized as hormones will be in FLUX and the body is trying to ADJUST to the increasing T levels.

First time hopping on trt using the 4 blends esterified T (Sustanon) and you experienced quick/huge improvements within the first 2-4 weeks.

Hard to say for sure but you just went from being hypogonadal (pre-trt) to driving up your T levels with the use of exogenous testosterone.....ask anyone that starts trt for the first time especially on the higher dosed protocols many can feel euphoric during the transition period (first 4 weeks) leading up until blood levels have stabilized.

Keep in mind many can be going from <300 ng/dL well above 1000 ng/dL 4-6 weeks in.

Huge surge in T/dopamine.


and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change? I think this was the first pitfall.

Seems odd that in the first 3 months (12 weeks) everything was great using the same protocol (ester/sub-q injections) then all of a sudden your body supposedly stopped absorbing the T.

If such was the case with absorption strictly sub-q it would have more than likely happened much sooner.....not 12 weeks in.


I know you are proponent of sub-q injections, but when my stomach was full of nodules everywhere my levels fell with 40 percent and the way I felt transferred from from God-like to like pre-TRT.

If such is truly the case then it is plain and simple.....stick with strictly IM

Do what you feel is best for you!


I then tried sub-q enanthate(8 weeks) and shallow IM UGL cyionate protocol(8 weeks) achieving levels of 800-1000 when for the corresponding dose of 160mg per week I was expecting at least 1300. Also I felt way worse on enan and cyp compared to the sustanon on the fallen levels.
When my levels on sustanon fell I just started to feel pretty much like before TRT, but on the long single esters I felt UNKNOWN apathy and sluggishness and the further I was getting into their protocols the worse I f
elt, to the point in the last week of the sub-q enanthate protocol I was falling asleep at work and almost got kicked out of my job.


Again you only gave each protocol 8 weeks and trough TT was in the high end which would have your trough FT level on the high end with an SHBG 30 nmol/L.

You were definitely hitting healthy T levels but even then I would need to see full labs and top it off that I am not too fond of UGL gear!

If you truly felt horrible using such esters (IM or sub-q) when compared to Sustanon then go back to using Sus.

Hope you understand that the main ester used in Sustanon is decanoate (100 mg to boot) which is longer acting than cypionate/enanthate!


After that I tried scrotal cream, held on that only 3-4 weeks because I got from it terrible unheard of before anxiety and panic attacks, I've never had panic attacks in my life.

3-4 weeks then you bailed.....let alone no labs to post!


Then somebody suggested to me to try sustanon IM and at that point my test levels climbed quickly and the way I felt abruptly improved. I quickly got improvements, in a matter of 3-4 weeks even less and started to feel really great, not like the first 2-3 months of TRT, but lets say 80 percent of that.
And now 2-3 months ago I decided to try to ease my life and reduce a life-long sequence of deep IM injections, which was the whole point of transferring to enanthate.


Again if you feel best on Sustanon then why waste your time with enanthate/cypionate.

The easier fix is to inject shallow IM using a fixed LDS insulin syringe 27-29G x 1/2" (12.7MM) needle length.

Pain/scar tissue will be minimal.....problem solved!


But I experience the same type of sluggishness I got before on the long single esters, this time is not as bad because I guess Im doing IM.

At least it is not as bad and you are 8 weeks in strictly IM but I would put money on it that regardless of the ester (enanthate) your trough TT/FT levels are too high on your current protocol and can easily cause one to feel horrible.

If anything I would be dropping your overall weekly dose from 140 mg/week (70mg every 3.5 days) to 100-120 mg/week (50-60 mg every 3.5 days).

Regardless you would still need to wait 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize and give the protocol another 2-3 months to truly gauge how you feel overall.

Like I stated already numerous times you have never given your protocols a fighting chance.


We both agree my test levels are too high, but isnt it expected this to lead to something like agressivness, anxiety, feeling tense, hyped, sleeps issues and so on? But instead I feel apathy and sluggishness, zero motivation to do anything, to talk to people and so on... Provided this heads that way, do you believe that after 2-3 months of investment of time which would be a terrible tornment for me something magical will happen and at some point I will start feeling completely different?

Depends on the individual and higher levels can also lead to burnout in some.

T has a tonic effect on the CNS and can make one feel amped up.

Also has an impact on dopamine and may have a negative impact when running high levels let alone a steady state.

You are running very high trough TT/FT levels and estradiol will be high.

Many can struggle with issues when it comes to where estradiol levels sit.


Also can you give me some reference for the 2-3 months period like a content from a TRT physicians somewhere online? I mean I've watched most of the content TRT doctors put online, I've watched doctors with contradictory to each other opinions about things like estrogen, HCG and so on but all of them claim to asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks and I've never seen someone mentioning a need to wait another 2-3 months if the patient feels crappy. If there is such reference I will thoroughly examine it. I do not mean to put disrespect to you, just if I'm gonna make a strong investment in something I look for at least 2 credible opinions.

Never going to be able to assess the true effectiveness of a protocol in 6-8 weeks as again during the weeks leading up until blood levels stabilize (4-6 weeks) hormones are in FLUX as in T levels let alone estradiol are rising and the body is trying to ADJUST.

Snapshot of BLOODWORK at 6 weeks.....sure!

Need to know where trough TT/FT/e2 levels let alone other blood markers sit as I stated earlier we want to make sure T levels are not too low or high as this will have a negative impact on achieving the desired long-term beneficial effects of having healthy testosterone levels.

Even then once blood levels have stabilized it will take another 8-12 weeks for the body to fully ADAPT to the new levels.

Patience is key!


but all of them claim to asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks and I've never seen someone mentioning a need to wait another 2-3 months if the patient feels crappy.

If T levels are too low or too high and one feels shitty 6-8 weeks in then the sensible move would be to tweak the protocol (dose T, AI?)


On the other hand provided every time I've started sustanon I GOT QUICK IMPROVEMENTS do you think there might be some action of it that stimulates my endocrine or nervous system to make me feel good, action that is not present from the slow steady release of the single long esters? We know sustanon is very different with all of its downsides like being very difficult to dial in.

If you truly felt better using Sustanon then stick with what you feel is best.

Even then I would try lowering your overall weekly T-dose then get labs done in 6 weeks and if T levels are healthy give it at least another 2 months before claiming your protocol using enanthate is a failure.


Do you also think switching to enanthate with different oil may lead to improvement?

Doubtful.


I see some people on this forum combining propionate with cypionate, do you think their cases may have some correlation to mine?

Hard to say and the only way you would know is to give it a go.











Look over some references in the most recent paper.

Ask Nelson who Mohit Khera and Abraham Morgentaler are!


26.What is a reasonable timeline to begin to observe improvements in the signs and symptoms of testosterone deficiency?

*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD.76,77

*As such, patients should be counseled that symptom response will not be immediate. Expectations for treatment response should be established with each patient. Patients can anticipate improvements in many of the common symptoms of TD (libido, energy levels, sexual function) after 3 months of treatment or longer. Metabolic and structural (body composition, muscle mass, bone density) changes may take upwards of 6-months. 77
In addition, patients should be counseled that diet and exercise in combination with testosterone therapy are recommended for body composition changes.

*Appreciating this pattern of response to testosterone therapy is fundamental when determining the impact of treatment and the appropriate timing of follow-up evaluations while on therapy.

*For example, if patients undergo a symptom review and measurement of testosterone levels too early (< 3 months), it may lead both physicians and patients to conclude that the treatment has not been impactful (i.e. normal levels of testosterone without symptomatic/structural/metabolic benefit). However, if the same assessment was scheduled 3-6 months after the initiation of therapy, the clinical response tends to be more reflective of normalized levels of serum testosterone.
 

madman

Super Moderator
Notice who contributed to the guidelines?


Canadian Urological Association clinical practice guideline on testosterone deficiency in men: Evidence-based Q&A (2021)

Ethan D. Grober, MD; Yonah Krakowsky, MD; Mohit Khera, MD; Daniel T. Holmes, MD; Jay C. Lee, MD; John E. Grantmyre, MD; Premal Patel, MD; Richard A. Bebb, MD; Ryan Fitzpatrick, MD; Jeffrey D. Campbell, MD; Serge Carrier, MD; Abraham Morgentaler, MD



Methods

The current guideline is structured as a series of Questions & Answers (Q&A) relating to the diagnosis and management of TD. By way of this structure, the guideline offers a practical, evidence-based overview and recommendations related to the diagnosis, treatment, monitoring, risks, and benefits of TD and testosterone therapy. It was designed to be a straightforward and user-friendly guide for specialists (urologists, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, geriatricians), general practitioners, and the patients they treat. The guideline offers Canadian-specific content with respect to knowledge and attitudes related to TD, laboratory diagnostic testing, Health Canada approved treatment formulations, and funding considerations.

The authorship group represents a panel of Canadian and international experts in the fields of men’s health and TD. Representation is inter-provincial and multi-disciplinary covering the fields of urology, internal medicine/endocrinology, and clinical biochemistry.
 
If you truly felt horrible using such esters (IM or sub-q) when compared to Sustanon then go back to using Sus.
My whole idea for switching to enanthate was to reduce a lifetime of a lot of injections, now 2 injections per week feel awesome to me from a view point of pinning. And not that Im needlefobic, just when you start often doing deep IM at the same sites it starts to be painful at some point, and Ive heard of horrible bodybuilder stories like muscle swelling and so on. My experience with the way I felt the UGL cypionate makes me believe the shallow IM doesnt work well for me and also provided Im not very lean I'm not sure with 1/2 inch 29g I reach the muscle even in the shoulder(I do shoulders now with 27g 3/4 inch).
Also if I spread the injections in too many muscle groups and do it EOD I think I may get issues regarding that the different muscles have different absorbtion rate. When I was doing EOD sustanon before the enanthate I've been doing shoulders and ventriglute and I was starting to get pain in the ventriglutes.

If such was the case with absorption strictly sub-q it would have more than likely happened much sooner.....not 12 weeks in.

This was also strange, I can explain it only by the fact that the nodules have build up a lot by these 12 weeks. Similar thing happened to a friend of mine using this same product. Initially he felt great, total t around 1200-1300, then he started to feel bad - total t around 800-900 at the same dose! And his dose was 210mg per week! He switched 3 months ago to IM enanthate injecting 200mg split in two per week, he checked level at trough and it was 1500+ :D Also I know in USA sustanon is not popular, but in Europe it is famous for building the nodules if you try to do it sub-q, I guess because of the peanut oil. Also what I have observed is like the leaner the person is, the better sub q method works. Now Im 25 percent body fat and for sure Im working out hard to correct that, but will not start over night and wanna optimize my protocol first to cut down calories, this will cause me additional stress.

Below I will post blood work on where I felt most awesome - around 2 months in treatment around 160mg per week split in EOD, 100ui HCG daily, total t is again too high - 1400+, but e2 is even higher than now - around 80 and I felt really awesome, well maybe I felt it was a bit too much, but generally I felt like a GOD - stellar mood, stellar energy, crazy libido and iron erections.

Vitamin В12 S 498 pmol/l 145 - 569 ECLIA
Total Testosterone S 50.26 nmol/l 9.90 - 27.80 ECLIA
Total Testosterone US Units S 1450 ng/dl 300 - 1500 ECLIA
SHBG S 41.77 nmol/l 18.30 - 54.10 ECLIA
Albumin S 43.3 g/l 35 - 52 PHOT
Free Testosterone Calculated C 34.4 ng/dl
Estradiol S 80.58 ng/L 7.63 - 42.60 ECLIA
DHEA-s S 8.93 µmol/l 4.34 - 12.20 ECLIA
TSH S 1.9 µIU/ml 0.27 - 4.20 ECLIA
Free Т4 (fT4) S 11.95 ng/l 9.30 - 17 ECLIA
Free T3 (fT3) S 2.94 ng/l 2 - 4.40 ECLIA
ТАТ (Tg Ат) S <10.00 IU/ml 0 - 115 ECLIA
A-TPO (MAT) S 5.5 IU/ml 0 - 34 ECLIA
Reverse T3 S 186 pg/ml 90 - 215 RIA
Prolactin S 278.2 mIU/L 84.80 - 318 ECLIA
Cortisol (morning) S 323.8 nmol/l 133 - 537 ECLIA
Insulin (fasting) S 3 mU/L Оптимални ст.: < 10.0 ECLIA
IGF I S 282.2 ng/ml 82 - 244 CLIA
Total Cholesterol (Chol.) S 3.8 mmol/l 3.5 - 5.20 PHOT
HDL-Cholesterol (HDL-C) S 1.31 mmol/l > 1.5 PHOT
LDL-Cholesterol (LDL-C) S 2.46 mmol/l 0 - 3.35 PHOT
Trigliceridi (Tg) S 0.57 mmol/l 0 - 1.70 PHOT
Glucose S 5.03 mmol/l 2.80 - 6.10 HK
Uric Acid Serum S 288 µmol/l 202.3 - 416.5 U-PAP
ASAT S 20 IU/l 0 - 40 IFCC
ALAT S 21 IU/l 0 - 41 IFCC
ГГТ S 11 IU/l 0 - 60 IFCC
Leukocytes EB 6.99 G/l 3.5 - 10.5 DC+LD
Erythrocytes EB 5.14 T/l 4.5 - 5.90 DC-det.
Hemoglobin EB 158 g/l 140 - 180 SLS
Hematocrit EB 0.46 l/l 0.40 - 0.53 calc
MCV EB 88.5 fl 80 - 96 Calc.
MCH EB 30.7 pg 28 - 33 Calc.
MCHC EB 347 g/l 300 - 360 Calc.
tromobociti EB 233 G/l 140 - 440 DC-det.
RDW-SD EB 42 fl 35.10 - 43.90 calc.
RDW-CV EB 12.9 % 11 - 14.40 calc.
PDW EB 13.1 fl 9 - 17 calc.
MPV EB 10.7 fl 9.40 - 12.40 calc.
P-LCR EB 31.2 % 13 - 43 calc.
PCT (trombokrit) EB 0.25 l/l 0.17 - 0.35 calc.
ДKK 5 DIFF - Sysmex XN 1000 EB
NEUT (ANC) EB 4.19 G/l 1.70 - 6.80 DC+LD
LYMPH EB 2 G/L 1 - 3.57 DC+LD
MONO EB 0.63 G/L 0.20 - 0.90 DC+LD
EO EB 0.14 G/L 0.04 - 0.54 DC+LD
BASO EB 0.03 G/L 0 - 0.08 DC+LD
NEUT % EB 60 % 50 - 73 DC+LD
LYMPH% EB 28.6 % 22 - 45 DC+LD
MONO % EB 9 % 5.30 - 12.20 DC+LD
EO % EB 2 % 0.80 - 7 DC+LD
BASO % EB 0.4 % 0.20 - 1.20 DC+LD
Total Cholesterol (Chol.) S 3.8 mmol/l 3.5 - 5.20 PHOT
HDL-Cholesterol (HDL-C) S 1.31 mmol/l > 1.5 PHOT
LDL-Cholesterol (LDL-C) S 2.46 mmol/l 0 - 3.35 PHOT
Trigliceridi (Tg) S 0.57 mmol/l 0 - 1.70 PHOT
Glucose S 5.03 mmol/l 2.80 - 6.10 HK
Uric Acid Serum S 288 µmol/l 202.3 - 416.5 U-PAP
ASAT S 20 IU/l 0 - 40 IFCC
ALAT S 21 IU/l 0 - 41 IFCC
GGT S 11 IU/l 0 - 60 IFCC
Na + S 142 mmol/l 136 - 145 ISE
K + S 4.39 mmol/l 3.5 - 5.10 ISE
Cl - S 105 mmol/l 98 - 107 ISE
Calcium S 2.36 mmol/l 2.15 - 2.5 CPC
Magnesium (Mg) S 0.75 mmol/l 0.66 - 1.07 PHOT
Bilirubin, total S 30.9 µmol/l 0 - 21 PHOT
Bilirubin, direct (конюгиран) S 8.6 µmol/l 0 - 8.5 PHOT
Zinc in Serum S 14.3 µmol/L 9 - 18 AAS
Copper, total in serum S 817 µg/L 560 - 1110 PHOT
Iron S 23.35 µmol/l 7.20 - 27.70
Ferritin S 216.2 µg/L 30 - 400 ECLIA
CRP - quantative measurement S < 1.0 mg/l 0 - 5 TURB
HbA1с - гликиран хемоглобин EB TINIA
according to DCCT - 4.35 % 4,80 - 5,90
according to IFCC - 24.04 mmol/mol 29 - 42
eAG (изч. средна глюкоза) 4.33 mmol/l

Still I want to try a bit more with the enanthate, the 2 times per week injections are something that I really hope can make me feel optimal and avoid pinning myself too often for the rest of my life. How much would you advise me to lower the dose? I will test total t only again in Wednesday before injection, testing that is value is cheap and I want to be more precise in the decision for dosage lowering. I was planning to lower 10mg, but maybe I need to lower with 15 or 20? At the same time I will switch to the other enanthate, which is again pharmaceutical, the same ester just different oil.

By the way except my bilirubin there is one value that has been very high since before I started TRT, but on TRT and HCG seems higher: progesterone. Do you think that may be causing some of my issues?

Before TRT:
Progesteron S 0.2 ng/ml 0,05 - 0,15 ECLIA

3 months after starting TRT:
Progesteron S 0.17 ng/ml 0.05 - 0.15 ECLIA

Last December:
Progesteron S 0.31 ng/ml 0.05 - 0.15 ECLIA

Also my sodium is always on the bottom of the range, no matter how hard I try to salt my food. Only If I start to consistently put salt in my bottles of water it moves 1-2 points above.
 
Last edited:
Something weird happened. Or it is not so weird.
I received the other type of enanthate and injected the first shot yesterday morning, 65mg as up to now with the other enanthate.
I felt very strong rush of energy, my mind cleared and so on. Definetely a bit of the feeling you are supposed to feel when you are on testosterone. I know what you are thinking...it is not a placebo, I can bet my life on it. And in fact I was very skeptical(still I am).

Im starting to think I have an issue with the oil in the previous enanthate, or not sure whether the testosterone source itself my cause issues. I would bet on the oil. My body is extremely sensitive to such things - for example I've taken b-50 vitamins from Now Foods the yellow pills no problem, but once I took the b-50 in the vegan capsules and felt like crap from them.

Back on the testosterone. The new enanthate at least after the first shot feels very different. It is with castor oil, the previous one was olive oil. I start to wonder whether the sustanon makes me feel so well because of the oil? I would like to try enanthate with a peanut oil, but I dont think there is such. And these two are the only pharmaceuticals I can access. Definitely whatever happens I'm not using the one with the olive oil ever again, for whatever reason this product gives me apathy and lethargy - now, and one year ago when I tried it again. Surely this is not how testosterone is supposed to make you feel. And when I started it the first shots made me extremely sleepy, after that it disappeared for a moment, but then turned in all-over lethargy all the time. It is normally a very high regarded testosterone product, but as I said my body reacts strangely to different things.

Still it doesnt mean on the new enanthate things will work out well, will wait a couple of weeks and see. It is much more expensive(120 percent more), but I will get it over if it makes me feel good, which is the most important thing. So yesterday and today I feel much better mentally and emotionally. Erections got crappy, but that is expected.

I also made a very small blood work before the morning injection yesterday, test levels are a bit lower so at the time being Im not lowering my dose. Maybe sustanon was not fully cleared last time I checked, also I dont know what levels the new enanthate will bring me.

Testosterone S 44.19 nmol/l 9.90 - 27.80 ECLIA
Total Testosterone US Units S 1274.5 ng/dl 300 - 1500 ECLIA
Progesteron S 0.16 ng/ml 0.05 - 0.15 ECLIA
Bilirubin, total S 54 µmol/l 0 - 21 PHOT
Bilirubin, direct (конюгиран) S 11.6 µmol/l 0 - 8.5 PHOT
Iron S 31.7 µmol/l 7.2 - 27.7 PHOT

I basically here tested except the total t all other parameters that look bad, and they still look bad :D
 
I will switch back to sustanon. With the time on enanthate I only deterriorate. 35mg EOD, will try to do in delts with smaller needle - 29g 1/2inch.
 

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