Question about natural production

JTvegas

New Member
Went to see a doctor today and was hopeful I could maybe do trt through their office. Currently my dose is .10 test cyp EOD. Doctor said this was way too high and that this would shut down my natural production. They went on to say they had been doing this for years and they only “boost natural production” with trt. Am I missing something? I thought as soon as you start doing trt your natural production shuts down.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
I question the competency of this doctor. Exogenous testosterone almost always suppresses natural testosterone production, and serum testosterone won't actually go higher until natural production is fully suppressed and more than replaced by the external testosterone. The exception is if they are using Natesto, which is so short-acting that suppression of natural production is more limited.

Are you taking 20 mg T cypionate EOD? This is a modest dose.
 

JTvegas

New Member
Yeah that is correct for dose, I get way too amped out and start having high blood pressure side effects if I go too much higher. I thought my dose was pretty low compared to most as well but the doctor acted like I was some kind of roided out gorilla and didn’t even realize it.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
At 7 mg pure testosterone per day your dose is very close to what the average young male makes naturally. But my rule of thumb is to derate this by 20% to account for a lack of daily variation in levels, so that even puts you a little below the natural average. I'm lower still, taking only 4.4 mg T per day. But using a blend that includes propionate allows for a lower dose with more natural variation in levels during the day. You might like a daily blend too since you get "amped out" pretty easily. What are your serum testosterone and SHBG on your current protocol?
 

gerardo

Member
It would be interesting to verify that low doses did not completely block the HPA axis. For example: If our body consumes 8 Mg of testosterone per day and we apply 5 Mg of testosterone per day then our body would only produce 3 Mg. That would be a dream.
 

JTvegas

New Member
Yeah I have not done labs for a bit but the doctor ran some tests not sure what, hopefully at least testosterone level so I get an idea of where things sit. That’s interesting about the propionate I would certainly consider it. I am not sure but I thought maybe part of my issue is the low shbg and the fact that maybe I absorb too much too quickly. I felt more energy when using more test but the sides get to be a bit much. How would one measure natural vs externally introduced testosterone?
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
... I am not sure but I thought maybe part of my issue is the low shbg and the fact that maybe I absorb too much too quickly. I felt more energy when using more test but the sides get to be a bit much. How would one measure natural vs externally introduced testosterone?
Low SHBG can be a challenge for guys on TRT. The exact reasons why are not definitively explained. Low SHBG does not affect the absorption rate of exogenous testosterone. It also can't change the overall metabolic clearance rate of testosterone because that is governed by the absorption rate. With respect to a fixed TRT dose, low SHBG does make free estradiol higher relative to free testosterone, and it reduces total testosterone. There's also speculation that a dearth of intracellular SHBG leads to inefficient utilization of testosterone.

Historically, in research exogenous testosterone was radiolabeled—made radioactive—so that its concentration relative to endogenous testosterone could be measured. A newer method is to label exogenous testosterone with deuterium. Testing via mass spectrometry can then differentiate between the labeled testosterone and the unlabeled natural testosterone.

A method more accessible to the average guy is to determine his dose-response relationship for exogenous testosterone. Generally free testosterone is proportional to dose. Once the constant of proportionality is known then it's possible to calculate the relative amounts of endogenous and exogenous testosterone based on dose and free testosterone.

As I mentioned above, any longer lasting—more than a few hours—exogenous testosterone is considerably more suppressive than endogenous testosterone. So you shouldn't be surprised to find that each milligram of exogenous testosterone can reduce endogenous production by more than one milligram, and perhaps much more.
 

madman

Member
Went to see a doctor today and was hopeful I could maybe do trt through their office. Currently my dose is .10 test cyp EOD. Doctor said this was way too high and that this would shut down my natural production. They went on to say they had been doing this for years and they only “boost natural production” with trt. Am I missing something? I thought as soon as you start doing trt your natural production shuts down.

Run and don't look back.

Find a new doctor as yours is clearly out to lunch!


post #78-81
 

madman

Member
Again.

*All formulations, with the exception of the short-acting ones, have a target of long-term maintenance of sustained steady-state testosterone levels in the mid-normal range, which leads to suppression of the endogenous activity of the HPG axis.
 

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