Progesterone Dose for Men

[Gianluca]

No offense to @Gianluca. I love all the experimenting ur doing on the subject, and how methodical u are with everything, and how interested u are in things like prog and preg, in regards to optimizing one’s protocol. I’m sure u understand what I was saying above

@Gman86 not offense taken at all here, we are all trying to learn what is best to do.

However, I do want to correct one of your statements, as Progesterone cream on the scrotum has given me constantly the same blood level. Two hours after application I'm at .6 ng/ml, and about 6/7 hours later I'm at .5. I have been doing it since January and checked levels a few times. On the other hand, forearm and inner thigh application was a disaster.

You sound you have been paying more attention than me, to Progesterone cream side effects vs injection. We know that in the skin, there are certain enzymes, and perhaps Progesterone encountering these enzymes may cause some unwanted side effects.

When I was applying the cream on my forearm, I thought I would feel almost drugged or in hangover almost dizzy. On scrotum, some time I may feel forgetful, or I could sleep at anytime during the day but also not, weird. I have seen other guys experiencing the same. But these symptoms improved significantly when adding back Pregnenolone cream. Curios if you or @Cataceous have ever experienced these side effects with the injection?

As we discussed yesterday, the only really major side effect now for me, is a possible effect on E2 receptors due to Progesterone as you suggested (I haven't checked the literature on this), making my joint to pop and crack, even if my E2 came back up nicely. If Progesterone induces this downregulation of E2 receptor, I doubt the injection route will change anything with this side effect, if this is the problem. I'm not trying to defend the cream, I'm actually open to try injection and see how it goes. I may decide between the injection route or just adding a 25mg Pregnenolone cap to raise Progest, see how that goes.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Just another data point for you guys - Before I started taking Pregnenolone my progesterone was 0.2. I have since been taking 100mg/day of Pregnenolone, and my progesterone is now 0.8

My pregnenolone level was 14 before, and is now 81 [Labcorp scale of <151]

[Amazon.com]

Dosing once a day?

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 not offense taken at all here, we are all trying to learn what is best to do.

However, I do want to correct one of your statements, as Progesterone cream on the scrotum has given me constantly the same blood level. Two hours after application I'm at .6 ng/ml, and about 6/7 hours later I'm at .5. I have been doing it since January and checked levels a few times. On the other hand, forearm and inner thigh application was a disaster.

You sound you have been paying more attention than me, to Progesterone cream side effects vs injection. We know that in the skin, there are certain enzymes, and perhaps Progesterone encountering these enzymes may cause some unwanted side effects.

When I was applying the cream on my forearm, I thought I would feel almost drugged or in hangover almost dizzy. On scrotum, some time I may feel forgetful, or I could sleep at anytime during the day but also not, weird. I have seen other guys experiencing the same. But these symptoms improved significantly when adding back Pregnenolone cream. Curios if you or @Cataceous have ever experienced these side effects with the injection?

As we discussed yesterday, the only really major side effect now for me, is a possible effect on E2 receptors due to Progesterone as you suggested (I haven't checked the literature on this), making my joint to pop and crack, even if my E2 came back up nicely. If Progesterone induces this downregulation of E2 receptor, I doubt the injection route will change anything with this side effect, if this is the problem. I'm not trying to defend the cream, I'm actually open to try injection and see how it goes. I may decide between the injection route or just adding a 25mg Pregnenolone cap to raise Progest, see how that goes.

Man, thanks again for the detailed reply to everything. Very helpful and informative. That’s extremely interesting and surprising to me that u were not only able to achieve such stable prog levels on the cream when applying to ur scrotum, but also very surprised that ur getting around the same blood levels on 25mg of prog cream via ur scrotum as Cataceous is getting with 0.6mg of injectable prog. Thanks again for experimenting so methodically with getting labs done and keeping the rest of ur protocol the same while throughout the process.

Based on ur results maybe it is possible to get stable prog levels using prog cream. It’s just extremely surprising to me that ur able to have such stable levels when there’s a few variables that can effect absorption when it comes to creams. Almost seems impossible tbh lol. But obv u’ve gotten extremely consistent levels on the cream. Literally the most consistent levels that u can achieve, which is getting the same exact blood prog level during two different sets of labs. Doesn’t get any more consistent than that. So even tho it doesn’t make sense theoretically to me, clearly u achieved the same exact blood levels, on the same exact dosage. So that’s reality, and I’m sure it could be other men’s reality using prog cream via their scrotum, as well. So I stand corrected, thanks to the experimenting that u’ve done.

To answer ur questions, I don’t think I’ve experienced any of the prog side effects that u mentioned. At least not that I’m aware of. But it’s hard to say, because I’ve always had some level of brain fog ever since I started HRT, which comes with forgetfulness and fatigue at times. But since I added injectable prog back in consistently, I feel like I’ve only felt a bit better overall, and haven’t experienced any negatives since starting it, compared to how I felt in those areas before restarting injectable prog this last time.

Do u have any idea why those symptoms significantly improved when adding the preg back in?

 

[Gianluca]

Man, thanks again for the detailed reply to everything. Very helpful and informative. That’s extremely interesting and surprising to me that u were not only able to achieve such stable prog levels on the cream when applying to ur scrotum, but also very surprised that ur getting around the same blood levels on 25mg of prog cream via ur scrotum as Cataceous is getting with 0.6mg of injectable prog. Thanks again for experimenting so methodically with getting labs done and keeping the rest of ur protocol the same while throughout the process.

Based on ur results maybe it is possible to get stable prog levels using prog cream. It’s just extremely surprising to me that ur able to have such stable levels when there’s a few variables that can effect absorption when it comes to creams. Almost seems impossible tbh lol. But obv u’ve gotten extremely consistent levels on the cream. Literally the most consistent levels that u can achieve, which is getting the same exact blood prog level during two different sets of labs. Doesn’t get any more consistent than that. So even tho it doesn’t make sense theoretically to me, clearly u achieved the same exact blood levels, on the same exact dosage. So that’s reality, and I’m sure it could be other men’s reality using prog cream via their scrotum, as well. So I stand corrected, thanks to the experimenting that u’ve done.

To answer ur questions, I don’t think I’ve experienced any of the prog side effects that u mentioned. At least not that I’m aware of. But it’s hard to say, because I’ve always had some level of brain fog ever since I started HRT, which comes with forgetfulness and fatigue at times. But since I added injectable prog back in consistently, I feel like I’ve only felt a bit better overall, and haven’t experienced any negatives since starting it, compared to how I felt in those areas before restarting injectable prog this last time.

Do u have any idea why those symptoms significantly improved when adding the preg back in?

Pregnenolone is known to increase cognitive function, learning, memory. I know with the Pregnenolone I think quick and I read fast, that's why I'm writing so much in here probably! but I'm also deficient if I don't supplement with it, and when I do I always see the difference. I'm also more joyful and enjoy more everything, and I handle stress much better. If I fight with someone, I'm fine after a littler bit, if I'm not on Preg I'm in pain the rest of the day, and I mean emotionally

You are optimizing Progesterone, but don't forget Pregnenolone, you could try a cream and that may bring you the other benefits you need. Cream is good for the adrenals more than the capsule, in my opinion.

I agree with you about the creams though, where I live the weather is pretty much always the same all year around, if I had to go where is more or less humid/hot, I would think something may change, which makes me think that capsules or injections could be the best thing here.

Probably my finals thought on this is that the most practical thing to do to raise Progesterone is a micronized Pregnenolone capsule, consider 100mg Pregnenolone can bring most men to a good Pregnenolone level and Progesterone at the same time, easy!. Other strategies like creams and injectables should be used only if the Preg cap cause side effects, or if we are trying to improve some type of anxieties

 

[newuser]

Would Progesterone or Pregnenolone dissovled in DMSO and applied right on bulge vein work like injectable administration?

 

[Gianluca]

Pharmacodynamics of progesterone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

some interesting quotes from it:

"Progesterone also lowers blood pressure and reduces water and salt retention among other effects via its antimineralocorticoid activity.[1][40]

Progesterone can produce sedative, hypnotic, anxiolytic, euphoric, cognitive-, memory-, and motor-impairing, anticonvulsant, and even anesthetic effects via formation of sufficiently high concentrations of its neurosteroid metabolites and consequent GABAA receptor potentiation in the brain.[39][103][104][105]"

"

Neurosteroid effects[edit]​

Progesterone, through the actions of neurosteroid active metabolites such as allopregnanolone and pregnanolone, is a potent positive allosteric modulator of the GABAA receptor, the major signaling receptor of the inhibitory neurotransmitter γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA).[15] It can produce sedative, hypnotic, anxiolytic, euphoric, cognitive-, memory-, and motor-impairing, anticonvulsant, and even anesthetic effects with formation of sufficiently high concentrations of its neurosteroid metabolites and consequent GABAA receptor potentiation in the brain.[39][103][104][105] These actions and effects are characteristically similar to those of other GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulators like alcohol, barbiturates, and benzodiazepines.[105]

Similarly to other GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulators like alcohol, barbiturates, and benzodiazepines, tolerance has been found to develop with exposure to increased levels of allopregnanolone and related inhibitory neurosteroids.[168][169] This includes downregulation and desensitization of the GABAA receptor, reduced effects of allopregnanolone and other GABAA receptor activators (e.g., GABA and benzodiazepines), and rebound or withdrawal effects upon falls in allopregnanolone levels.[168][169] In addition, changes in allopregnanolone levels have been implicated in adverse neuropsychiatric effects associated with the menstrual cycle (e.g., dysphoria, depression, anxiety, irritability) and postpartum period (e.g., postpartum depression), as well as in catamenial epilepsy (seizures).[170][171] Low and high levels of allopregnanolone seem to have a neutral effect on mood, whereas moderate levels have a negative effect, which may underlie the symptoms of premenstrual syndrome and premenstrual dysphoric disorder that are observed in 30 to 40% of premenopausal women.[170][171][172] This U-shaped effect on mood appears to be a common property of GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulators.[170][171]

 

[Gianluca]

This may explain why some people may experience some sort of memory and motor impairment with the progesterone cream. 5 AR in the skin may produce too much Allopregnenolone or other GABA positive allosteric modulators. Injections will not produce same result. @Gman86

 

[Gman86]

Great info. It always makes me scratch my head anytime I’m watching or listening to guys talking about progesterone being all negative and causing water retention and decreased sexual function. Seems like it has the potential to do the exact opposite of both of those things.

Damn, so low and high levels of Allopregnenolone are good, but moderate levels are not?? That seems to go against how every other hormone in the body works. Usually u want every hormone within balance, aka have it at a moderate level, and too low or too high is usually no good. So they’re saying that with allopregnenolone it’s the opposite??

 

[Gianluca]

Great info. It always makes me scratch my head anytime I’m watching or listening to guys talking about progesterone being all negative and causing water retention and decreased sexual function. Seems like it has the potential to do the exact opposite of both of those things.

Damn, so low and high levels of Allopregnenolone are good, but moderate levels are not?? That seems to go against how every other hormone in the body works. Usually u want every hormone within balance, aka have it at a moderate level, and too low or too high is usually no good. So they’re saying that with allopregnenolone it’s the opposite??

perhaps this unusual U shape curve and Allopregnenolone is related to women only

 

[Gman86]

perhaps this unusual U shape curve and Allopregnenolone is related to women only

Possibly. But then I also wonder if all the benefits apply to men like they do women. Have u ever seen studies done on men that show prog decreasing water retention, inhibiting E2 and DHT? Or are all these studies only done on women?

 

[Gianluca]

Possibly. But then I also wonder if all the benefits apply to men like they do women. Have u ever seen studies done on men that show prog decreasing water retention, inhibiting E2 and DHT? Or are all these studies only done on women?

I believe the studies I saw with Progesterone with men were on mental health. I personally didn't notice any particular diuretic effect from Progesterone.

 

[Gman86]

I believe the studies I saw with Progesterone with men were on mental health. I personally didn't notice any particular diuretic effect from Progesterone.

Ya I haven’t noticed any diuretic effects either

 

[Nocalves]

Ya I haven’t noticed any diuretic effects either

I did. It is due e2 lowering. For me progesterone has very noticible effect in lowering e2.

 

[DS3]

Interestingly, I noticed both antagonistic effects on estradiol as well as increased fluid retention while using oral progesterone. @Nelson Vergel has discussed holding water while using progesterone as well. Overall cognition and memory recall were moderately impacted with progesterone use. In terms of verbal fluency, memory, and overall cognition, I seem to do better without both progesterone or pregnenolone.

 

[Gman86]

Interestingly, I noticed both antagonistic effects on estradiol as well as increased fluid retention while using oral progesterone. @Nelson Vergel has discussed holding water while using progesterone as well. Overall cognition and memory recall were moderately impacted with progesterone use. In terms of verbal fluency, memory, and overall cognition, I seem to do better without both progesterone or pregnenolone.

So overall cognition and memory were impacted negatively while on progesterone? I wonder what about prog could have been causing this

Also, does @Nelson Vergel explain how prog can cause an increase in fluid retention? I can’t find any mechanisms in the literature about prog that could cause water retention. Everything I read about it and it’s mechanism of actions and the things it effects all leads to it decreasing water retention

How did u know it was increasing water retention for u? What objecting measure did u use to determine this? Jc

 

[Gman86]

I did. It is due e2 lowering. For me progesterone has very noticible effect in lowering e2.

What measure did u use to determine it decreased water retention for u?

 

[DS3]

So overall cognition and memory were impacted negatively while on progesterone? I wonder what about prog could have been causing this

Also, does @Nelson Vergel explain how prog can cause an increase in fluid retention? I can’t find any mechanisms in the literature about prog that could cause water retention. Everything I read about it and it’s mechanism of actions and the things it effects all leads to it decreasing water retention

How did u know it was increasing water retention for u? What objecting measure did u use to determine this? Jc

Elevated levels of progesterone levels are cited in the literature as contributing to memory deficits by altering brain regions associated with memory.

The same objective measure you would hse for any of these side effects: As I noticed water retention becoming an issue with progesterone use, I stopped using it for a number of days and the water weight decreased. To determine if it really was progesterone causing water retention, I administered it for a few more days after the break and found that the water weight came back.

The pretest posttest method of determining correlations between interventions and side effects is the best method in a TRT patient’s arsenal. An InBody assessment could have been used to quantitatively determine changes in water weight, but I don’t have readily available access to that.

 

[Gman86]

Elevated levels of progesterone levels are cited in the literature as contributing to memory deficits by altering brain regions associated with memory.

The same objective measure you would hse for any of these side effects: As I noticed water retention becoming an issue with progesterone use, I stopped using it for a number of days and the water weight decreased. To determine if it really was progesterone causing water retention, I administered it for a few more days after the break and found that the water weight came back.

The pretest posttest method of determining correlations between interventions and side effects is the best method in a TRT patient’s arsenal. An InBody assessment could have been used to quantitatively determine changes in water weight, but I don’t have readily available access to that.

I only read the abstract, but that’s definitely interesting. But also super confusing at the same time. They say at the beginning of the abstract that allopregnenolone increases anxiety, but I thought it was common knowledge that allopregnenolone was like the body’s natural xanax, and helps decrease anxiety.

Also, pregnenolone is known to improve cognitive function, and one of pregnenolone’s main metabolites is obv progesterone. So not sure how prog can decrease cognitive function when preg converts into it, yet preg usually improves cognitive function. Only thing I can think of is that prog can decrease cognitive function if the dose causes levels to be out of balance

But I’ve been experiencing a bit more finger tingling/ mild numbness than usual lately. I’m using HGH, but lowered my dose down to a dose that doesn’t cause me to have that side effect. And it worked for months. But recently it’s coming back a little, even on the same HGH dose. So I’m gonna do a quick experiment and drop my prog and see if it improves. Thanks for ur anecdote about oral prog clearly increasing water retention for u. Can’t deny real world results, regardless of what the literature states

 

[Gianluca]

I only read the abstract, but that’s definitely interesting. But also super confusing at the same time. They say at the beginning of the abstract that allopregnenolone increases anxiety, but I thought it was common knowledge that allopregnenolone was like the body’s natural xanax, and helps decrease anxiety.

Also, pregnenolone is known to improve cognitive function, and one of pregnenolone’s main metabolites is obv progesterone. So not sure how prog can decrease cognitive function when preg converts into it, yet preg usually improves cognitive function. Only thing I can think of is that prog can decrease cognitive function if the dose causes levels to be out of balance

But I’ve been experiencing a bit more finger tingling/ mild numbness than usual lately. I’m using HGH, but lowered my dose down to a dose that doesn’t cause me to have that side effect. And it worked for months. But recently it’s coming back a little, even on the same HGH dose. So I’m gonna do a quick experiment and drop my prog and see if it improves. Thanks for ur anecdote about oral prog clearly increasing water retention for u. Can’t deny real world results, regardless of what the literature states

I can definitely attest that Prog cause some sort decrease in cognitive function, learning ability and memory impairment, just like the opposite of Pregn. That's why balance is the key.

I think the negative cognitive side effects of Progest come from allopregnenolone, and probably the excess of it. So cream #1 then capsules #2 may cause this. That is why when I was applying the cream to my forearm I wouldn't see any increase in Prog serum, but I would feel the negative cognitive anyway, likely converting most into allopregnenolone.

By the way guys, Progesterone cream makes an excellent antianxiety "drug". and I call it drug cause it is really potent, at least with my experience. Progest capsule helped just a bit with anxiety compared to the cream.

 

[Gman86]

I can definitely attest that Prog cause some sort decrease in cognitive function, learning ability and memory impairment, just like the opposite of Pregn. That's why balance is the key.

I think the negative cognitive side effects of Progest come from allopregnenolone, and probably the excess of it. So cream #1 then capsules #2 may cause this. That is why when I was applying the cream to my forearm I wouldn't see any increase in Prog serum, but I would feel the negative cognitive anyway, likely converting most into allopregnenolone.

By the way guys, Progesterone cream makes an excellent antianxiety "drug". and I call it drug cause it is really potent, at least with my experience. Progest capsule helped just a bit with anxiety compared to the cream.

So anytime u take prog and it helps with anxiety u always unfortunately feel a decline in cognition? Or have u figured out how to get the anxiety benefits without it effecting ur cognition negatively?