What happened? Not the same

[jdvert]

Just contemplating changing back to Test E. Even thou all my bloods came back ok for all things. My testerone went down.I think these number are still to low for someone 47 years young.

I changed to testosterone undecanoate Nebido at 200 mg p/wk about 2 months ago. I was at 700/180 on Test E and now Its lower. My doctor put me on testosterone undecanoate and Itold him no way I take that big shot all at once so we settled on 200 mg/wk.

Any thoughts? thank you...

 

[Systemlord]

I changed to testosterone undecanoate Nebido at 200 mg p/wk about 2 months ago

Why did you change to Nebido?

I've heard guys say even with good numbers on Nebido they just don't feel good.

 

[Systemlord]

I think these number are still to low for someone 47 years young.

If your doctor is ok with the results, it's time to find a new one.

Who cares how old you are, get your levels higher so you can feel your best, have more energy and be healthier.

 

[jdvert]

If your doctor is ok with the results, it's time to find a new one.

Who cares how old you are, get your levels higher so you can feel your best, have more energy and be healthier.

He said something about Hematocrit numbers will be better on Nebido even thou I never had a problem with those numbers but one time like 5 years ago.

Would like to get back into 700 to 900 range with the higher numbers for FT as well..

 

[Systemlord]

He said something about Hematocrit numbers will be better on Nebido even thou I never had a problem with those numbers but one time like 5 years ago.

Your doctor just doesn't get it, increases in hematocrit and hemoglobin is part of the benefits of TRT.

 

[jdvert]

Your doctor just doesn't get it.

Your right about that. I want to go back to Test E. He probably gets xtra money for Nebido. Who Knows!

 

[jdvert]

Does this crap Nebido do anything 2 months total test 468 what happened. Ester b.s.

 

[Cataceous]

Keep in mind that the half-life of Nebido is quite long, so your numbers will continue to rise, possibly even for a few more months. Also, you've already achieved robust free testosterone, indicating your SHBG is on the low side. Looking back I see your SHBG was 12 nMol/L at baseline. In my opinion it would be preferable to remain at your current testosterone level for at least a couple months to fairly evaluate what it feels like. But the only way to achieve that is with a dose reduction.

To illustrate why your current total testosterone isn't low, let's assume your SHBG is still 12 nMol/L, though it may be lower now on TRT: your Vermeulen calculated free testosterone is 13.7 ng/dL. If your SHBG rose to a normal level of 30 nMol/L then your total testosterone would rise to 632 ng/dL, about average for healthy young men in their 20s, and certainly above the average for 47-year-old men. Don't succumb to the more-is-better mentality. Many men find that just about everything is better when testosterone is kept closer to what's normal for their physiology.

 

[jdvert]

Keep in mind that the half-life of Nebido is quite long, so your numbers will continue to rise, possibly even for a few more months. Also, you've already achieved robust free testosterone, indicating your SHBG is on the low side. Looking back I see your SHBG was 12 nMol/L at baseline. In my opinion it would be preferable to remain at your current testosterone level for at least a couple months to fairly evaluate what it feels like. But the only way to achieve that is with a dose reduction.

To illustrate why your current total testosterone isn't low, let's assume your SHBG is still 12 nMol/L, though it may be lower now on TRT: your Vermeulen calculated free testosterone is 13.7 ng/dL. If your SHBG rose to a normal level of 30 nMol/L then your total testosterone would rise to 632 ng/dL, about average for healthy young men in their 20s, and certainly above the average for 47-year-old men. Don't succumb to the more-is-better mentality. Many men find that just about everything is better when testosterone is kept closer to what's normal for their physiology.

Good perspective with information. Your right that how you feel is what counts most. I know I really felt really down when totals were under 300. I felt my best mentally and physically in the 700+ range. Even thou right now I feel good mentally I have seen some drop off in the physical aspect such switching over.

Could this be from the change in esters or something else hard to say but it could be a factor. I will continue with nebido maybe 1 or 2 more months to see if anything changes. Hopefully, it does but over all health is most important.

Thanks for your input. In your opinion what testerone do you prefer and why?

 

[Cataceous]

Unfortunately decreasing the dose is almost always harder than increasing. Your body has adapted to higher levels and it takes time to get used to more normal levels. One of our forum members said "I too started at too high a dose when starting injections, 150mg/week dosed E3D. It was living Hell having to reduce dose and go through withdrawal getting it right from there over the course of many months. In retrospect if I was to do it again, I would have started on about 80mg/week dosed every 2 or 3 days, and if inadequate boost 2mg EOD at 6-8 week intervals with labs at each stage until I felt good."[R]

In my own case I did find that athleticism was better with higher testosterone, but everything else is better at lower levels—libido, sexual function, cognition, etc.

I haven't even used my preferred testosterone. It is nasal gel, and the reason why I promote it anyway is that it lets you boost your testosterone without disrupting multiple other hormones. Traditional TRT shuts down the HPTA, which in some cases leads to other problems. I don't use the nasal gel because it wasn't an option when I started. Instead I have developed a complex protocol that works around the worst problems caused by TRT. The testosterone itself is a blend of enanthate and propionate injected daily. It's equivalent to only 44 mg of cypionate per week.

 

[DS3]

I have to go on record here and say that dosage titration downwards is promoted and recommended too often on this forum. @Cataceous has stood by his belief that low dosages are better for most objective and subjective measures while on TRT. I have to have to disagree. I listened to this advice and titrated mg dosage down to 70 mg per week for the past year in hopes that some of the the side effects I was experiencing from TRT would subside. Did that happen? Nope. All I managed to achieve was living in a constant state of feeling hypogonadal for the past 12 months, all the while losing energy for daily activities, including working out.

@jdvert Being satisfied with a low TT because your free T is at a healthy level is fine if you feel good. If you don’t feel good, and I’m talking subjectively because we all seem to forget that part of the benefits of TRT are the subjective central nervous benefits, then I would caution you to not lower the dose and not wait it out with Nebido only to be disappointed months down the road. If you like higher testosterone and you feel better on Test E, make the switch. Life is too short to feel like you are barely on TRT when you are already taking it.

 

[jdvert]

Unfortunately decreasing the dose is almost always harder than increasing. Your body has adapted to higher levels and it takes time to get used to more normal levels. One of our forum members said "I too started at too high a dose when starting injections, 150mg/week dosed E3D. It was living Hell having to reduce dose and go through withdrawal getting it right from there over the course of many months. In retrospect if I was to do it again, I would have started on about 80mg/week dosed every 2 or 3 days, and if inadequate boost 2mg EOD at 6-8 week intervals with labs at each stage until I felt good."[R]

In my own case I did find that athleticism was better with higher testosterone, but everything else is better at lower levels—libido, sexual function, cognition, etc.

I haven't even used my preferred testosterone. It is nasal gel, and the reason why I promote it anyway is that it lets you boost your testosterone without disrupting multiple other hormones. Traditional TRT shuts down the HPTA, which in some cases leads to other problems. I don't use the nasal gel because it wasn't an option when I started. Instead I have developed a complex protocol that works around the worst problems caused by TRT. The testosterone itself is a blend of enanthate and propionate injected daily. It's equivalent to only 44 mg of cypionate per week.

I can see from your points that there is many different variables to using testerone and applying it to TRT.

After reading your complex protocol one must conclude that you have put alot of time and effort on this subject. Very informative and appreciate you help on the subject.

 

[jdvert]

I have to go on record here and say that dosage titration downwards is promoted and recommended too often on this forum. @Cataceous has stood by his belief that low dosages are better for most objective and subjective measures while on TRT. I have to have to disagree. I listened to this advice and titrated mg dosage down to 70 mg per week for the past year in hopes that some of the the side effects I was experiencing from TRT would subside. Did that happen? Nope. All I managed to achieve was living in a constant state of feeling hypogonadal for the past 12 months, all the while losing energy for daily activities, including working out.

@jdvert Being satisfied with a low TT because your free T is at a healthy level is fine if you feel good. If you don’t feel good, and I’m talking subjectively because we all seem to forget that part of the benefits of TRT are the subjective central nervous benefits, then I would caution you to not lower the dose and not wait it out with Nebido only to be disappointed months down the road. If you like higher testosterone and you feel better on Test E, make the switch. Life is too short to feel like you are barely on TRT when you are already taking it.

I get you point as I said in my post to Cataceous. There are so many variables with TRT that apply on a person to person basis. I believe the most important aspect is how you feel as long as your blood work is decent maybe it does not have to be perfect.

For me, I have time to see where this leads my next blood test is in February. If the levels for TT and other markers are not what I expect them to be I may change back to Test E. My thinking this TRT is like a science tweaking and changing stuff as things come up in your life age,stress etc.

I can say this TRT is a science..

Thanks for your input!

 

[Cataceous]

I have to go on record here and say that dosage titration downwards is promoted and recommended too often on this forum. @Cataceous has stood by his belief that low dosages are better for most objective and subjective measures while on TRT. I have to have to disagree. I listened to this advice and titrated mg dosage down to 70 mg per week for the past year in hopes that some of the the side effects I was experiencing from TRT would subside. Did that happen? Nope. All I managed to achieve was living in a constant state of feeling hypogonadal for the past 12 months, all the while losing energy for daily activities, including working out.
...

I'd be interested in seeing your numbers. For me, titrating downwards to more natural levels was only a step in the right direction, but would not by itself have resolved all of my issues, such as with libido and the management of estradiol and prolactin. That's why the resulting protocol is so complex; I'm trying to add back the important things that TRT messes up.

What you're saying is that you feel hypogonadal while taking more testosterone than the average guy in his 20s makes naturally. It's certainly possible. But it could also suggest that the issue is more about what TRT has messed up than about the level of testosterone. There are cases where guys feel better on supraphysiological dosing. I'm not vehemently opposed to that if all else fails. However, I think the safest progression for the typical hypogonadal guy is to start with a nasal gel to get a sense of whether higher testosterone is moving him in the right direction. In the best case all symptoms resolve and the treatment can be continued indefinitely. There may be some guys who feel like it helps but can't stand the delivery method or have other reasons to really want to move to conventional TRT. While I'd hope there's some awareness of the potential problems with HPTA shutdown, all I'm really asking for in these cases is that the low-and-slow approach be adopted. Make sure you know what it feels like to be at average levels before experimenting with more. Have a known situation to fall back on if higher levels create problems. Be cognizant of the fact that the consequences of long-term supraphysiological dosing are not known.