Understanding My Levels

[canadianeh]

Posted this on Reddit but only got a little feedback. Looking to discuss a bit more:"

I'm 42, no real symptoms of Low T AFAI. Maybe low energy but I chalk that up to 5:30AM wakeups and being busy most days,

I workout pretty hard 5 days per week lifting & cardio. I sleep okay'ish. I usually get to bed around 11 wake up around 5 having to use the bathrooms.

I eat, okay not great. Too much junk. I'm carrying a bit too much body fat right now prob 22-24%

I've been reading and hearing about TRT more than ever before. In Canada, I signed up for OnMen which made it relatively simply to get my blood checked.

Yesterday I had a follow-up consultant.

She said T is low but above "normal" range.She said FT is low but not horrible.

She said I would be a candidate for TRT but it's not really something you try and then get off if you don't like. She also talked about the risk of "man boobs", or trying to come off TRT and then levels being worse or struggling to come back to normal.

I asked if I was low, why have I never experienced any of the symptoms. I.e. energy is good, libido good, everything works as it should. She said maybe I've always been low and just coped and perhaps I could be feeling better/more energy?!

Testosterone = 12.9 nmol/L which I think equates 371

Free T = 267 pmo/L which I believe is 73 pg/ml

Full results:

https://imgur.com/a/W7qfcLq

Her end advice was if I wasnt sure, maybe use these numbers as a baseline and check again in 3 months and 6 months. Any other advice/thoughts on the numbers?

 

[canadianeh]

Do those calculations seem right and are those "low" "normal" or as she said "low but not horrible."

 

[Systemlord]

She said I would be a candidate for TRT but it's not really something you try and then get off if you don't like.

You’re either all in or not at all. TRT is a life long commitment.

She also talked about the risk of "man boobs", or trying to come off TRT and then levels being worse or struggling to come back to normal.

I had man boobs pre-TRT, due to extra body fat, TRT got rid of that problem. TRT doesn’t cause man boobs. Eat like shit, get to 500-600 pounds and you’ll get man boobs.

Man boobs and gyno are two separate issues, the later being genetic and I wonder does your doctor even know the difference between the two?

Be careful and never trust that your doctor knows how to prescribe TRT, most follow outdated guidelines (injections every 2-4 weeks) that puts you on a path to prolonged misery.

Maybe low energy but I chalk that up to 5:30AM wakeups and being busy most days,

Testosterone has anabolic effects on the body, it builds you up, your bones, muscles and gives you energy. Your levels are low enough to cause the lower energy levels and declining quality of sleep, as testosterone declines further, more symptoms will start to appear and become more debilitating.

Hormones are like a dimmer switch, raise the switch and the effects become more noticeable.

 

[Systemlord]

Do those calculations seem right and are those "low" "normal" or as she said "low but not horrible."

You don’t have to be below the normal range to experience symptoms of low -T, few doctors truly understand hormones.

Diagnosis and management of testosterone deficiency

Testosterone supplementation therapy (TST) use has dramatically increased over the past decade, due to the availability of newer agents, aggressive marketing, and an increasing incidence of testosterone deficiency (TD). Despite the increase in TST, a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, some experts advocate for treatment in clearly symptomatic men regardless of serum testosterone levels, including those with levels > 350 ng dl−1.77Within this group, experts attribute benefit of treatment to modulation of the androgen receptor, mediated by genetic polymorphisms in exon one of the androgen receptor gene in the form of increased cysteine adenosine guanine (CAG) repeats. Certain data have shown increased CAG repeats are associated with decreased sensitivity in the receptor to testosterone and manifestation of TD symptoms despite “normal” serum testosterone levels.

So as you can see it’s not so simple as the overall levels, but the sensitivity at the androgen receptor, low sensitivity, more testosterone is needed to feel normal and therefore you can’t have one threshold or cutoff for everyone.

 

[sammmy]

My advice: don't fix it if it ain't broken. If you feel OK, your low normal T levels do not matter. There is no guarantee that you will feel better on higher TRT levels - TRT is overhyped in the media and this forum is full with disappointed people that thought TRT will make them a superman and all their problems will go away but it didn't happen.

There are many people on TRT that still suffer from lack of libido, are still fat, and even get worse sleep as a side effect of TRT.

If you try TRT, the longer you stay on it and the higher the doses, you increase the risk that your body won't go back to your current levels and then you will have to be on TRT forever, possibly not solving any problem but creating new ones.

 

[canadianeh]

So are these levels low?! I still can't really seem to find a definitive answer. I hear so many mixed numbers.

The doctor said low but not awful.

 

[canadianeh]

You’re either all in or not at all. TRT is a life long commitment.

I had man boobs pre-TRT, due to extra body fat, TRT got rid of that problem. TRT doesn’t cause man boobs. Eat like shit, get to 500-600 pounds and you’ll get man boobs.

Man boobs and gyno are two separate issues, the later being genetic and I wonder does your doctor even know the difference between the two?

Be careful and never trust that your doctor knows how to prescribe TRT, most follow outdated guidelines (injections every 2-4 weeks) that puts you on a path to prolonged misery.

Testosterone has anabolic effects on the body, it builds you up, your bones, muscles and gives you energy. Your levels are low enough to cause the lower energy levels and declining quality of sleep, as testosterone declines further, more symptoms will start to appear and become more debilitating.

Hormones are like a dimmer switch, raise the switch and the effects become more noticeable.

Didnt your first message say:

"Of course it is, men stop TRT all the time for fertility, regain the natural levels and hop back on TRT. This has been done for ages."

versus "You’re either all in or not at all. TRT is a life long commitment."

Just trying to understand.

 

[canadianeh]

My advice: don't fix it if it ain't broken. If you feel OK, your low normal T levels do not matter. There is no guarantee that you will feel better on higher TRT levels - TRT is overhyped in the media and this forum is full with disappointed people that thought TRT will make them a superman and all their problems will go away but it didn't happen.

There are many people on TRT that still suffer from lack of libido, are still fat, and even get worse sleep as a side effect of TRT.

If you try TRT, the longer you stay on it and the higher the doses, you increase the risk that your body won't go back to your current levels and then you will have to be on TRT forever, possibly not solving any problem but creating new ones.

My biggest concern is really "What if it's broken, and I dont know it!" Could this give me a better quality of life?

I really tested out of genuine curiosity.

 

[Systemlord]

Didnt your first message say:

"Of course it is, men stop TRT all the time for fertility, regain the natural levels and hop back on TRT. This has been done for ages."

versus "You’re either all in or not at all. TRT is a life long commitment."

Just trying to understand.

It seems somehow the edit cut out some of my original post. If you were to start TRT and then later decide to stop, you can still reverse course and return to baseline. Men using testosterone for performance enhancement have been doing this for decades.

 

[Systemlord]

So are these levels low?! I still can't really seem to find a definitive answer.

Most men would have symptoms at these levels, so in that respect that are low. You won’t get a definitive answer on this question because so much is unknown, like CAG repeat lengths/androgen sensitivity.

At what Free T level do you feel optimal?

 

[canadianeh]

Most men would have symptoms at these levels, so in that respect that are low. You won’t get a definitive answer on this question because so much is unknown, like CAG repeat lengths/androgen sensitivity.

At what Free T level do you feel optimal?

Yes,

Libido is very strong. In the gym, I have high endurance, can lift heavy, strong as F. but not sure that is a symptom. I have a full set of hair, etc.

I am tired later in the day and am carrying too much body fat right now, but I'll dial in my diet soon! I was pretty dialed in a while ago, let things slip the past few months.

 

[Systemlord]

I am tired later in the day

This comment pretty much tells you it’s testosterone related if Dr. Eugene Shippen has anything to say about it. Dr. Eugene Shippen which I’ll link a video below says if you feel tired before your usual bedtime, it’s more than likely testosterone related.

Dr. Eugene Shippen has been prescribing TRT for 50 years and has a lot of experience with men’s hormones.

 

[Systemlord]

am carrying too much body fat right now, but I'll dial in my diet soon!

Here’s the question, is the increase in body fat causing the lower testosterone, or is the lower testosterone causing the higher body fat?

If the latter, than you may not be able to do much about it, except stave off further decline.

 

[canadianeh]

This comment pretty much tells you it’s testosterone related if Dr. Eugene Shippen has anything to say about it. Dr. Eugene Shippen which I’ll link a video below says if you feel tired before your usual bedtime, it’s more than likely testosterone related.

Dr. Eugene Shippen has been prescribing TRT for 50 years and has a lot of experience with men’s hormones.

not because I get up at 5AM, workout 6-7, go non-stop with the kids until 8:15AM, work until 2:30-3, then dinner/groceries/sports practice etc.

This is not why I'm tired?

 

[Systemlord]

This is not why I'm tired?

You didn’t watch the video, all of this extensively explained by Dr. Eugene Shippen. One could argue that all of this activity, responsibilities are contributing to the low hormone state.

Men who are married see a decline in testosterone, kids further lower testosterone and men who are recently divorced see an increase in testosterone.

 

[canadianeh]

Will watch now!

You didn’t watch the video, all of this extensively explained by Dr. Eugene Shippen. One could argue that all of this activity, responsibilities are contributing to the low hormone state.

Men who are married see a decline in testosterone, men who are recently divorced see an increase in testosterone.

 

[Systemlord]

My typical day for me looks something like this, I wake up, get on the bike, ride 5 miles to the beach (10 round trip), swim for a couple of hours, return home, shower, then go straight to the gym and I’m never tired until right before bedtime.

This is every day, no matter what activities I’m doing. I’m 50 year old and have high normal testosterone.

 

[canadianeh]

My typical day for me looks something like this, I wake up, get on the bike, ride 5 miles to the beach (10 round trip), swim for a couple of hours, return home, shower, then go straight to the gym and I’m never tired until right before bedtime.

This is every day, no matter what activities I’m doing. I’m 50 year old and have high normal testosterone.

yeah I get it. It's not like I'm so tired I can't keep my eyes open! Watching that video now!

 

[canadianeh]

The conversions are confusing considering every chart of what is "normal" or "average" uses a different measurement. Not sure if these reported numbers from a Canadian lab are different?

If I'm right

Testosterone = 12.9 nmol/L equates 371 ng/dl

Free T = 267 pmo/L which I believe is 73 pg/ml

For a 42 year old male, how do these rank?

 

[Systemlord]

Testosterone = 12.9 nmol/L equates 371 ng/dl

Free T = 267 pmo/L which I believe is 73 pg/ml

For a 42 year old male, how do these rank?

I think @readalot can better answer your question as far as how low you are compared to other men.

For now let’s compare:

Testosterone Levels 100 Years Ago - TestosteroneDecline.com

Here's real data on testosterone from 1962, and estimated testosterone 100 - 300 years ago. There's also a study of testosterone almost 2000 years ago in Egypt!

testosteronedecline.com

As you can see, average testosterone in the USA was something like 625 ng/dl in the 70’s, until the early 80’s. This is reasonably high testosterone. But since then it has been falling steadily.

Testosterone was something like 580 ng/dl in 1990, which is still acceptable.

In the period between 1999 to 2004 testosterone was 534 ng/dl.

For the average American man in the period of 2013 – 2016, testosterone was 420 ng/dl. (source)

420 ng/dl is quite close to being officially low testosterone, which is 300 ng/dl according to the American Urological Association. 420 is below the normal range of most studies from before 1980. That means that the average man today has lower testosterone than almost every man in the 60’s, 70’s, and early 80’s.