Thyroid... numbers and peculiar happening since starting low dose NDT...

[BillyJ03z]

Quick backstory... Been TRT for 9-10+ years, initially felt good for the first 6 months but over the next months/several years I became tired, suffering brain fog/memory issues, disinterested in things I was interested in prior, mild depression, up/down libido, sleep issues, weight gain, trouble losing weight, etc..... (hypo-symptoms). I have changed my TRT dosing/injection numerous times over the years and over the past year I have settled on Low dose (approx 100mg/wk) ED SQ injects due to my low SHBG (bottom 10% of SHBG lab range).

My main concerns over the past few years is the Brain fog, memory issues, lack of motivation and struggle to lose weight no matter how disciplined I was with eating.

My last Blood Work for Thyroid labs was Feb 2019 (my labs have pretty much looked like these the entire time on TRT, although my TSH fluctuated from 2.2 to 3.7 many times)...

TSH- 2.83 (0.450-.4.500 uIU/mL)
FT3- 3.9 (2.0-4.4 pg/ml)
FT4- 0.9 (0.82-1.77 ng/dl)
Tot T3- 102 (71-180 ng/dl)
Tot T4- 6.50 (4.50-12.50ug/dl)
RT3- 14.9 (9.2-24.1 ng/dl)

TgAB- <0.9 (0.0-0.9 IU/mL)
TPOab- 13 (0-34IU/mL)

I started using 1/2 grain Armour thyroid (taken on empty stomach in AM) and within about 2 weeks I started losing weight... Over 2 1/2 months I went from 251lb to 224lb... I did not do any extreme dieting, I just continued my typical good eating habits and working out as usual (as much as my lack of motivation and fatigue would allow me to work out) I am also sleeping better, not great, but a little bit better than before... I was doing all the same things prior to starting 1/2 grain Armour thyroid and I could not lose weight to save my my life despite the clean eating and working out.. Although the Armour has helped with weight loss I still don't have that much improvement with energy, motivation, brain fog... I do have some tiny improvement in these areas but nothing to write home about and it may also just be placebo effect from losing weight.. I don't know....

This week I am getting labs to see where my Thyroid numbers are because something happened/kicked in for the weight loss and I have held steady at the 225lb mark even when I don't eat clean for a few days or work out....

Any thoughts??

 

[Gman86]

Very interesting. I just started optimizing my thyroid recently as well. Seems like the thyroid is getting a little more attention now everywhere I look.

What might be going on with your is thyroid resistance. Just like there’s testosterone resistance, where your numbers could look good, but on a cellular level there’s just not as must testosterone getting into the receptors, you may have this going on but with your free T3. So my guess is that your cells weren’t getting the amount of free T3 that your labs were telling ya they were getting.

Definitely curious to see where your labs currently are. I found out the hard way that NDT can be WAY stronger than we think. I was using 2.5 grains of WP thyroid and it sky rocketed my free T3 to 7.3.

I would start tracking your morning temps upon waking. You want them as close to 98.6 as possible. It’s a pretty reliable way to test your thyroid without labs.

 

[Gman86]

They were just talking all about thyroid on the roundtable yesterday. Keith Nichols specifically talks about how if TRT isn’t giving the results his patients are looking for, then he will do a trial run of thyroid medication, even if labs present as healthy. Due to the receptor resistance that I was mentioning.

 

[BillyJ03z]

I've heard about the monitoring the Temps upon waking but I never tried because my sleep/wake cycle is so erratic depending on when I fall asleep, if I have work, sometimes I wake up and just lay in bed cuz Im too tired to really get out of bed, etc...

 

[Gman86]

I've heard about the monitoring the Temps upon waking but I never tried because my sleep/wake cycle is so erratic depending on when I fall asleep, if I have work, sometimes I wake up and just lay in bed cuz Im too tired to really get out of bed, etc...

Ya i would just take your temp whenever u get out of bed. It’s just important to take it before you start moving around a lot or your body starts processing a meal. Just want to get an idea of where your temp is at after it’s been at rest for an extended period of time. Preferably in the morning.

Before thyroid labs, they used to treat just off of symptoms and basal temps.

 

[Maximus220rr]

Ya i would just take your temp whenever u get out of bed. It’s just important to take it before you start moving around a lot or your body starts processing a meal. Just want to get an idea of where your temp is at after it’s been at rest for an extended period of time. Preferably in the morning.

Before thyroid labs, they used to treat just off of symptoms and basal temps.

I am starting to do armour at a therapeutic dose of only 15mg a day. Do u think this is way too low of a dose? Doc wants me to do this mg for 2 months and test thyroid again. Isnt 30mg the way to go?

 

[BillyJ03z]

I am starting to do armour at a therapeutic dose of only 15mg a day. Do u think this is way too low of a dose? Doc wants me to do this mg for 2 months and test thyroid again. Isnt 30mg the way to go?

15mg did nothing for me.... I started seeing weight loss 2 weeks after going to 30mg however it did not improve my other hypo symptoms of brain fog, lack of motivation, depression, energy, etc... so I have upped my dose to 1 grain and added 5mcg of T3 and re-evaluate from there...

 

[Vince]

Quick backstory... Been TRT for 9-10+ years, initially felt good for the first 6 months but over the next months/several years I became tired, suffering brain fog/memory issues, disinterested in things I was interested in prior, mild depression, up/down libido, sleep issues, weight gain, trouble losing weight, etc..... (hypo-symptoms). I have changed my TRT dosing/injection numerous times over the years and over the past year I have settled on Low dose (approx 100mg/wk) ED SQ injects due to my low SHBG (bottom 10% of SHBG lab range).

My main concerns over the past few years is the Brain fog, memory issues, lack of motivation and struggle to lose weight no matter how disciplined I was with eating.

My last Blood Work for Thyroid labs was Feb 2019 (my labs have pretty much looked like these the entire time on TRT, although my TSH fluctuated from 2.2 to 3.7 many times)...

TSH- 2.83 (0.450-.4.500 uIU/mL)
FT3- 3.9 (2.0-4.4 pg/ml)
FT4- 0.9 (0.82-1.77 ng/dl)
Tot T3- 102 (71-180 ng/dl)
Tot T4- 6.50 (4.50-12.50ug/dl)
RT3- 14.9 (9.2-24.1 ng/dl)

TgAB- <0.9 (0.0-0.9 IU/mL)
TPOab- 13 (0-34IU/mL)

I started using 1/2 grain Armour thyroid (taken on empty stomach in AM) and within about 2 weeks I started losing weight... Over 2 1/2 months I went from 251lb to 224lb... I did not do any extreme dieting, I just continued my typical good eating habits and working out as usual (as much as my lack of motivation and fatigue would allow me to work out) I am also sleeping better, not great, but a little bit better than before... I was doing all the same things prior to starting 1/2 grain Armour thyroid and I could not lose weight to save my my life despite the clean eating and working out.. Although the Armour has helped with weight loss I still don't have that much improvement with energy, motivation, brain fog... I do have some tiny improvement in these areas but nothing to write home about and it may also just be placebo effect from losing weight.. I don't know....

This week I am getting labs to see where my Thyroid numbers are because something happened/kicked in for the weight loss and I have held steady at the 225lb mark even when I don't eat clean for a few days or work out....

Any thoughts??

What would concern me is your high reverse T3. There's nothing wrong with supplementing with armor, but I would add some Cytomel. Adding some T3, along with your armor, should help lower your reverse T3. That way you will stop pooling T3 and start using more of it.

 

[Maximus220rr]

15mg did nothing for me.... I started seeing weight loss 2 weeks after going to 30mg however it did not improve my other hypo symptoms of brain fog, lack of motivation, depression, energy, etc... so I have upped my dose to 1 grain and added 5mcg of T3 and re-evaluate from there...

Did your doc start u out at 15m

15mg did nothing for me.... I started seeing weight loss 2 weeks after going to 30mg however it did not improve my other hypo symptoms of brain fog, lack of motivation, depression, energy, etc... so I have upped my dose to 1 grain and added 5mcg of T3 and re-evaluate from there...

Did your doc start u out with 15mg and then did labs to show no results? Or did they start at 30mg?

 

[BillyJ03z]

What would concern me is your high reverse T3. There's nothing wrong with supplementing with armor, but I would add some Cytomel. Adding some T3, along with your armor, should help lower your reverse T3. That way you will stop pooling T3 and start using more of it.

I have cynomel T3... I added 5mcg with my morning dose of Armour... this morning I bumped up my Armour from 1/2grain to 1 grain w/ 5 mcg of T3... I was planning on going with 1/2 grain Armour in late afternoon w/ another 5mcg T3... how does that sound? or should I go another way with Armour dosing with T3? or should I drop Armour and just go straight t3??? I am concerned with my very low totatl T4 and Free T4 along with the high RT3 14.9..... I figured that since I have low total and free t4 I needed to use Armour to get those levels higher so I can convert more t3 (my labs show I am converting T3 good but just high RT3 and low T4 and Ft4...

 

[BillyJ03z]

Did your doc start u out at 15m

Did your doc start u out with 15mg and then did labs to show no results? Or did they start at 30mg?

My doc started me out at 15mg and wanted me to stay there.. after about 3-4 weeks I felt nothing, so i took it upon myself to increase 15 to 30mg based off the Armour website for dosing.... Haven't had blood work yet with the thyroid med because honestly Im going to go by how I feel rather than numbers... I do know that from my labs in Feb 19 that my RT3 is too high at 14.9 so I got to get that down...

 

[Maximus220rr]

Doesnt your script come 30 pills at a time? Didnt u go through your script quick. My doc wont let me go to 30mg until I do labs again and she wants me to wait 2 months

 

[BillyJ03z]

Doesnt your script come 30 pills at a time? Didnt u go through your script quick. My doc wont let me go to 30mg until I do labs again and she wants me to wait 2 months

last year I was initially given a script for 30qty 15mg Armour w/ 3 refills.... I started and used 1 bottle but didn't start the other 2 bottles and waited because I was having second thoughts on messing with my thyroid... I then went back to my doc and convinced her to go to 30mg/ 30 qty w/ 3 refills... again I didn't start right away... Now I have 2 full bottles of 15mg/30qty and 2 full bottles of 30mg/30qty.... I will go back to my doc in the next few weeks and make her give me 1grain/60mg..... I have cynomel t3 that I ordered online...

 

[Vince]

I have cynomel T3... I added 5mcg with my morning dose of Armour... this morning I bumped up my Armour from 1/2grain to 1 grain w/ 5 mcg of T3... I was planning on going with 1/2 grain Armour in late afternoon w/ another 5mcg T3... how does that sound? or should I go another way with Armour dosing with T3? or should I drop Armour and just go straight t3??? I am concerned with my very low totatl T4 and Free T4 along with the high RT3 14.9..... I figured that since I have low total and free t4 I needed to use Armour to get those levels higher so I can convert more t3 (my labs show I am converting T3 good but just high RT3 and low T4 and Ft4...

The issue with adding too much T4 is it increases both your free T3 and reverse T3. It would be nice if you only have to use thyroid meds in the morning, so I would attempt that first. Remember to take your meds first thing in the morning and don't eat anything for half an hour.

 

[HarryCat2]

I have cynomel T3... I added 5mcg with my morning dose of Armour... this morning I bumped up my Armour from 1/2grain to 1 grain w/ 5 mcg of T3... I was planning on going with 1/2 grain Armour in late afternoon w/ another 5mcg T3... how does that sound? or should I go another way with Armour dosing with T3? or should I drop Armour and just go straight t3??? I am concerned with my very low totatl T4 and Free T4 along with the high RT3 14.9..... I figured that since I have low total and free t4 I needed to use Armour to get those levels higher so I can convert more t3 (my labs show I am converting T3 good but just high RT3 and low T4 and Ft4...

High Reverse T3 (rT3) Can be a Sign of Too Much T3

 

[Gman86]

I am starting to do armour at a therapeutic dose of only 15mg a day. Do u think this is way too low of a dose? Doc wants me to do this mg for 2 months and test thyroid again. Isnt 30mg the way to go?

Honestly even 30mg is quite low. I think 1 grain is probably the lowest effective dose. You can start at 30mg, and then increase by 15mg each week, until you reach 1 full grain (60mg). If you’re doing NDT only, and no T3, 1 grain is most likely not gonna be enough to get the job done. But I think starting at 1 grain and getting labs done is perfect. If I could go back, I’d start with 1 grain of NDT only, and see what my morning temps and labs looked like after taking that dose for a month straight. It can take up to 3 weeks for the T4 in NDT to build up in your system.

 

[BillyJ03z]

So right now I am gonna take 1 grain Armour w/ 5mcg T3 in AM and then take 5mcg T3 in late afternoon.. and see how that goes... Something was definitely happening with only adding 1/2 grain in AM for the past 2 months because I have lost 24lbs without extreme dieting and half-ass work outs due to my lack of energy/motivation... So Im hoping Im somewhere on the right path... at least I know that my RT3 of 14.9 from labs back in Feb 19 were high and a problem...

 

[Maximus220rr]

Honestly even 30mg is quite low. I think 1 grain is probably the lowest effective dose. You can start at 30mg, and then increase by 15mg each week, until you reach 1 full grain (60mg). If you’re doing NDT only, and no T3, 1 grain is most likely not gonna be enough to get the job done. But I think starting at 1 grain and getting labs done is perfect. If I could go back, I’d start with 1 grain of NDT only, and see what my morning temps and labs looked like after taking that dose for a month straight. It can take up to 3 weeks for the T4 in NDT to build up in your system.

It would be great but my doc wont let that happen yet! Sucks

 

[Gman86]

It would be great but my doc wont let that happen yet! Sucks

God I’m so glad I’m past doctors that either don’t know what they’re doing, won’t listen to their patients, or both. I feel for ya man, I’ve been there.

But ya unfortunately 1/2 a grain of NDT isn’t gonna really do anything for u. I’d be very curious to see ur labs on it tho, compared to before using it. Some say the thyroid works in a negative feedback loop, like testosterone, and others seem to do well on small doses. So some say a small dose will shut u down, and ur just left with whatever dose of the thyroid medication ur taking. Others seem to think a small dose just adds upon your natural thyroid levels. So id be very interested to see which one is the case with 1/2 a grain of NDT.

 

[Gman86]

So right now I am gonna take 1 grain Armour w/ 5mcg T3 in AM and then take 5mcg T3 in late afternoon.. and see how that goes... Something was definitely happening with only adding 1/2 grain in AM for the past 2 months because I have lost 24lbs without extreme dieting and half-ass work outs due to my lack of energy/motivation... So Im hoping Im somewhere on the right path... at least I know that my RT3 of 14.9 from labs back in Feb 19 were high and a problem...

Sounds like a great plan. I would personally just split the Armour dose, and take 1/2 grain in am, and 1/2 grain in the afternoon. Basically take them when u take ur T3. There’s 9mcg of T3 in each grain, hence why people split NDT as well. But it probably won’t make much difference if you take it whole once in the am.