Pacman
Active Member
Just want to chime in here...
As I myself have had tons of issues with libido and have been searching for a solution.
Unfortunately I have not completely solved the issue, but I will share with you some pointers to save you time in your own journey.
Cialis will not increase your libido. It just makes you hard, and it may give you random uncomfortable boners even when you are not thinking about sex at all. I myself would take like 7 mg at a time, so maybe 2.5 mg wouldn't do that.
PT-141 does increase libido though, but there is this uncomfortable nauseating feeling you get for like an hour. It feels like you are about to vomit. If you are on an emtpy stomach (2+ hours didn't eat), it's fairly tolerable. If used right, it can make you horny for 16+ hours. Don't use it at the same time you take stimulants though (e.g. ADD medication etc), as PT-141 acts on your CNS and will give you anxiety and jitters if you take it while on stimulant meds. No fun at all. Also, PT-141 is a hit and miss solution. I don't know why, but it didn't give me consistent results. It's like a flip of a coin.
I have found that Oxandrolone works incredibly well for increasing libido, it is fast acting as well, I find it to be effective 70%(ish) of the time. There is something about it that really touches upon the libido. I do not know how it works so well. The downside is that it is bad for your liver and cholesterol levels (decreases good cholesterol and increases the bad one, what a deal).
So it can't really be used all the time, and if you have cardiovascular issues and/or liver issues, you really need to stay clear of it.
That is just my experience, yours may be different. But hopefully the info I gave you above can save you some time in figuring out a solution to your own situation.
As I myself have had tons of issues with libido and have been searching for a solution.
Unfortunately I have not completely solved the issue, but I will share with you some pointers to save you time in your own journey.
Cialis will not increase your libido. It just makes you hard, and it may give you random uncomfortable boners even when you are not thinking about sex at all. I myself would take like 7 mg at a time, so maybe 2.5 mg wouldn't do that.
PT-141 does increase libido though, but there is this uncomfortable nauseating feeling you get for like an hour. It feels like you are about to vomit. If you are on an emtpy stomach (2+ hours didn't eat), it's fairly tolerable. If used right, it can make you horny for 16+ hours. Don't use it at the same time you take stimulants though (e.g. ADD medication etc), as PT-141 acts on your CNS and will give you anxiety and jitters if you take it while on stimulant meds. No fun at all. Also, PT-141 is a hit and miss solution. I don't know why, but it didn't give me consistent results. It's like a flip of a coin.
I have found that Oxandrolone works incredibly well for increasing libido, it is fast acting as well, I find it to be effective 70%(ish) of the time. There is something about it that really touches upon the libido. I do not know how it works so well. The downside is that it is bad for your liver and cholesterol levels (decreases good cholesterol and increases the bad one, what a deal).
So it can't really be used all the time, and if you have cardiovascular issues and/or liver issues, you really need to stay clear of it. That is just my experience, yours may be different. But hopefully the info I gave you above can save you some time in figuring out a solution to your own situation.
Sorry for the late response, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this information for me.Just want to chime in here...
As I myself have had tons of issues with libido and have been searching for a solution.
Unfortunately I have not completely solved the issue, but I will share with you some pointers to save you time in your own journey.
Cialis will not increase your libido. It just makes you hard, and it may give you random uncomfortable boners even when you are not thinking about sex at all. I myself would take like 7 mg at a time, so maybe 2.5 mg wouldn't do that.
PT-141 does increase libido though, but there is this uncomfortable nauseating feeling you get for like an hour. It feels like you are about to vomit. If you are on an emtpy stomach (2+ hours didn't eat), it's fairly tolerable. If used right, it can make you horny for 16+ hours. Don't use it at the same time you take stimulants though (e.g. ADD medication etc), as PT-141 acts on your CNS and will give you anxiety and jitters if you take it while on stimulant meds. No fun at all. Also, PT-141 is a hit and miss solution. I don't know why, but it didn't give me consistent results. It's like a flip of a coin.
I have found that Oxandrolone works incredibly well for increasing libido, it is fast acting as well, I find it to be effective 70%(ish) of the time. There is something about it that really touches upon the libido. I do not know how it works so well. The downside is that it is bad for your liver and cholesterol levels (decreases good cholesterol and increases the bad one, what a deal).
That is just my experience, yours may be different. But hopefully the info I gave you above can save you some time in figuring out a solution to your own situation.
I appreciate the tip about PT-141 as I take 5mg of Adderall daily for ADD. So ill be sure not to take it that day if I try it lol.
Don't think I'll be able to get my hands on Oxandrolone but who knows. Ya I believe this is going to be quite a long journey to find the right therapy. Again thanks for all the information guys!
Systemlord
Member
This should have been including in your first post, I have personal experience with Adderall (ADHD) and it murdered my erections and libido and once I stopped it things return to normal.
ED meds tend to not work at all if testosterone is low, you said Viagra worked but you stopped do to side effects.
TRT will not be able to overcome the side effects of Adderall and believe you might be going down the wrong road to recover libido and erectile strength.
I didn't say much about it because I just started close to 8 months ago, I used to take it when I was a kid. As far as it contributing, maybe.. however I've been dealing with this libido thing for 6 years now. Also I stopped recently for about 6 weeks and started back on it again last week. However I would like to find something else to replace Adderall as my moods feel unstable on it.
Systemlord
Member
Were you on any other ADD medications before Adderall that might help explain the low libido and ED?
No I always just took Adderall, I stopped the medication during high-school than just recently started up again because I haven't been able to focus very well over the last few years.. seems to have been getting worse and I believe it's been effecting my duties at work. I guess not the best thing to take. Actually I think I may stop it all together, I do not want to make things worse either.
ivkonst2017
Active Member
Your test levels are terrible and you will most certainly benefit from TRT. However, you gotta change your mindset now that you are from now on responsible for optimizing. Keep in mind that TRT will bring you the desired results if you do it PROPERLY and together with:
- Optimizing other health issues if you have any of them - subclinically low thyroid(although in range), fatty liver, mineral deficiencies, metabolic issues, IR
- Optimizing diet, macro and micronutrients, enough veggies, etc
- Doing some weightlifting and regular walking or cardio, preferably walking if you have time
- Optimizing body fat percentage - HUGE if you are over weight
- Quitting alcohol, beer, smoking and drugs
In terms of what to look for that can ruin your TRT treatment, no matter with which clinic you start:
- Dont start lower than 120mg per week and dont start higher than 150mg per week. You may need to adjust later from there
- Start doing muscular injections, initially dont start sub q. Once dialed in you can try sub q
- Dont let anyone start you on AI - arimedex, anastrozol, aromasin from the beginning!
- Dont start HCG with your testosterone. HCG can be great addition to TRT, but try to go 5-6 weeks initially without it.
- Start 2 or 3 injections weekly, preferably 2. Dont start once per week, also no need to go daily or every other day unless 2 or 3 times per week cause unstability with how you feel! We want to pin as rare as possible while feeling the best we can.
Also most important regarding TRT is to be patient. You gotta keep in mind every protocol change takes 6-8 weeks to settle in your body, while in this period issues can be expected, so dont make any adjustments until this period is over and you can evaluate. I wish someone told me this stuff 2 years ago...
I would nix these two. Even 100 mg per week of testosterone cypionate is providing testosterone that's well above average natural production—10 mg per day compared to 6-7. It's typically easier to raise the dose than to lower it. Thus a low-and-slow approach is preferred.
Don't be dissuaded from starting with subcutaneous injections. Studies have shown that their efficacy is comparable to that of IM injections. Claims to the contrary should be taken with a grain of salt because they involve uncontrolled conditions and insufficient measurements. In the end it's an individual preference. Some will have injection site reactions with one method and not the other. IM injections are more invasive, with constant muscle punctures. They are also more problematic when there's a lapse in sterile procedure, as abscesses in muscle are worse than superficial ones. Subcutaneous injections have a practical volume limit of 0.5-1 cc. They may also be more prone to leakage. It's good to inspect injection sites after a few minutes to gauge if there's been any loss.
ivkonst2017
Active Member
I disagree to all these, but I guess we would never reach agreements on these points
madman
Super Moderator
- Dont start lower than 120mg per week and dont start higher than 150mg per week. You may need to adjust later from there
You should not be dishing out advice when you should very well know that many men can easily achieve a high-end trough FT let alone absurdly high in some cases on 100 mg/week (split into more frequent injections).
Even then you have absolutely no idea where his SHBG sits as unfortunately, he did not have it tested.
- Start doing muscular injections, initially dont start sub q. Once dialed in you can try sub q
Again for a majority of men, there should be no difference in the absorption/effectiveness of T when injecting strictly sub-q.
Sure some may not do well but it is far from common.....bro-science spewed on the forums.
Top it all off that men lurking on forums represent a small slice of men on trt!
If anything the main drawback for some would-be lumps at the injection site/pain/swelling.
Are there outliers who achieve poor T levels on such.....sure but again it is far from common!
My doctor is considered one of the pioneers in Canada treating men on trt using sub-q injections (since 2007) and many of his patients do well on such.
ivkonst2017
Active Member
Ive seen in practice at what dosages most men feel most OPTIMAL not just sitting within the already compromised reference ranges for total testosterone, free testosterone and estradiol that should not be bluntly applied to men on HRT. A lot of knowledgeable and experienced doctors I know start dialing their patients from around 150mg per week. And again I see people comparing mg per mg endogenous to exogenous testosterone which is a total mistake.
As for sub q like I stated many times we see enough men for which it doesnt work well enough and IM is the more reliable delivery method
Hey man I appreciate the information. There is no way I'd be able to start on a 120mg dose, the clinic I will be going to will only start me off on 100mg per week they allow me to do it so I can administer it more frequently if I wanted to. I haven't bit the bullet yet I've been stupid busy at work so I haven't even been able to get my recent labs yet either.
So the thing that has still been eating at me is that lots of people say that you will regret it if you start trt that my levels are in a good range and that my libido issues are something else entirely. When do most guys start trt anyways ? From what I can tell TT in the high 200s and I'm not quite there yet, however im ready to lose my freaking mind over this libido thing.
So far I have changed my lifestyle over the last 2 years, no more drinking, I never did smoke or do drugs. I lost some weight, about 20-25lbs. I cook 6 days out of the week and will usually eat out on Fridays (pizza) usually. I workout 3-6 days a week, anything past 3 days is light cardio, yoga, stretching, walking. Most likely I will start trt pretty soon, but will do everything possible first I guess.
Oh and so far no difference on cialis 2.5mg... shocker I know lol.
Hey I noticed you saying you have a great TRT doc in Canada? Which part is he from... Hopefully the Edmonton Alberta area?? Lol
ivkonst2017
Active Member
100mg are better than nothing for a starting point and you can get better there, but most men on TRT need higher dosage to resolve their symptoms. So if it turns out that is your case I suggest looking for another clinic
That is total bulshit and misinformation. Your test levels are low enough and it is normal to have libido issues. HOWEVER like I mentioned in my previous post if you have other health issues like hypothyroid, you may need to fix them as well together with TRT in order for libido to recover. With you having so low test levels now Im rather positive TRT alone will bring you noticable improvements, the chances for that are pretty good.
When does a man start TRT? When levels CAN be considered low and he has signs and symptoms of testosterone defficiency. Low testosterone levels for guy A doesnt necessarily means below the reference range, low levels can be well within the reference range even at its middle. Many men need to be at the top of the reference range and even higher to feel best they can, because the reference ranges are criminally LOW today. For your information I started TRT with a total test level in the high 500s(varying from 300-400s) and SHBG of 50, but I had most of the symptoms. TRT didnt fix all my issues, but made me feel way better and MASSIVELY improved the quality of my life. Being in the range doesnt mean testosterone is not low. The same applies for the active thyroid hormone FT3.
Now on TRT I feel good at levels in the 1200-1300ng/dl, if I go down at 800 many of my symptoms return. Many men feel best at such total t levels and calculated free t of 25-40ng/dl. But some require way less, some can feel good at 800, some can feel good at 600, some may need 1600 to feel good(possible for example for an SSRI patient).
Also bear in mind you shouldnt campare levels of a guy on TRT with a guy on endogenous bluntly, usually, not always of course on TRT we need to go 20-30 percent higher to get the same effect. WHY - the science hasnt discivered yet
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madman
Super Moderator
Ive seen in practice at what dosages most men feel most OPTIMAL
Again many men can easily achieve high-end trough TT as in 1000+ ng/dL let alone high FT 30+ ng/dL injecting 100 mg T/week split into more frequent injections.
Most men will easily achieve a high-end let alone absurdly high trough FT on 100-150mg T/week.
Start low and go slow we say.
Much easier to go up than come down!
Enough of the optimal bullshit as many men will easily do well with a trough TT 800-1200 ng/dL range let alone FT 20-30 ng/dL range.
If you truly believe every man needs to be running absurdly high TT 1500-2000 ng/dL let alone FT 50-80 ng/dL your out to f**king lunch!
Piss poor advice telling someone to jump in on the higher dose when first starting trt.
Again you have absolutely no idea where his SHBG sits (low for all we know) let alone how he will react to T.
Guess you missed post #7!
post #7
Yes I did 2-3 years ago for only a month, I had a change of heart at the time and wanted to give it my all with a natural approach. I also had some weird side effects 3 weeks in which also pushed me out of it as well. I felt really faint sweaty and had shallow breathing along with crazy amounts of anxiety, can't remember what else but that's the gist of it.
He tried trt once for 4 weeks and bailed out!
As for sub q like I stated many times we see enough men for which it doesnt work well enough and IM is the more reliable delivery method
Again far from common and piss poor reason to try and prevent someone from starting trt strictly sub-q!
ivkonst2017
Active Member
120mg is NOT a high dose and IM is superior and more reliable administration method, I will continue again and again stand by these. I see you are very knowledgeable but If I listened to your advice I would be screwed. And yes, some men need higher test levels to feel good for whatever health issues they have - SSSRI usage, ex steroid users etc.
Yes, there are men that can achieve even 1200ng/dl total with sub q snd they are very rare. And with your favourite sub q they will be even far morr rare. If someone happens to get a bit higher levels for a few weeks there is nothing scary or dangerous in that, thats why we do blood work and he will just lower his dose IF the way he feels amd the side effects suggests so, not just a number above a compromised reference range. If a guy happens to get at even at 1500, feels perfect, has no side effects, lipids, blood counts, blood pressure and all other health markers are good why should he lower it? I definetelly wouldnt, my doctor as well. Nothing in the medical literature suggests these levels are harmful long term, and even if some problems start to occur due to some undiagnosed health problem like sleep apnea for example we do regular blood work, they will appear, the guy will lower his dose and fix the immediate problems while addressing the root cause.
If you think 1200ng/dl is supraphysiological because it is outside the range I really see no point in continuing discussion with you
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By this logic the Xyosted product should be a total failure; it comes in three doses: 50, 75 and 100 mg of testosterone enanthate per week. The product's success belies your claim.
A figure of ~20% is probably accurate, and there's a very plausible explanation: Natural men have diurnal variation in testosterone, with trough's that can be as much as 40% below peaks. If the peak testosterone level is conferring some of the benefits then a man on TRT must use a little more testosterone if his delivery method doesn't give daily variation. Nonetheless, with the vast majority of natural men making 4-9 mg testosterone per day, an extra 20% means that most are still covered by 100 mg T cypionate per week.
If you think men need to routinely run these levels then you should not be on here dispensing advice. This mentality is harmful, and the forums are littered with examples:
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...
www.excelmale.com
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...
www.excelmale.com
Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?
Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are? @JoeMatts im curious for this as well
www.excelmale.com
Hello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...
www.excelmale.com
Have you ever DECREASED your dose?
Hey guys. I've only been on TRT for about 9 months. I'm on Test Cyp 100 mg Q3.5d with 350iU of HCG IM. I recently (this week) lowered my Anastrozole from 0.5 mg on injection days to 0.25mg to see how it will effect me (side effects, changes in libido, and also then lab values). ****I'm happy...
www.excelmale.com
Hello, 60yo starting TRT.
Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...
www.excelmale.com
TRT patient feeling better after lowering my prescribed dose
Hey Guys, Hope all's well and Happy 4th! I'm looking for feedback. As a young male battling ED and low T, hopefully sharing my experience on what worked helps someone too. Almost 32 now and I use to have severe ED as long as I can remember, maybe late teens. No clue on cause. Maybe it's...
www.excelmale.com
Dose Change Side Effects
Hi guys, I just switched to a daily protocol of 24mg after spending a few weeks on 100mg E3D. This E3D protocol kicked the shit out of me, I dont think I respond well to having so much T at one time. The anxiety and thoughts were nightmarish plus the lethagy is real. Is there anything that...
www.excelmale.com
madman
Super Moderator
- Dont start lower than 120mg per week and dont start higher than 150mg per week. You may need to adjust later from there
Backtracking now are we?
You stated do not start lower than 120 or higher than 150 mg/week.
So you are telling the OP to jump on 120-150 mg/week!
Of course, 120mg T/week is far from a high dose, and nowhere did you take a stand and state at least start at 120 mg/week.....you left it wide open 120-150 mg T/week!
Again the best piece of advice is to start low and go slow on a T-only protocol.
If I listened to your advice I would be screwed.
So let me get this right you take a man about to start trt (including you) that has no experience with exogenous T, absolutely no idea how his body will react to T, and recommend starting low and going slow (100 mg T/week) whether once-weekly or split into more frequent injections and now all of a sudden he is screwed?
You take the same man and recommend that he has the option of injecting strictly sub-q or IM and you let him know that there should be no difference when it comes to the absorption/effectiveness of T although some men tend not to fare well on sub-q but it is far from common and he decides to try sub-q and now all of a sudden he is screwed?
LMFAO!
And yes, some men need higher test levels to feel good for whatever health issues they have - SSSRI usage, ex steroid users etc.
Who is denying such?
Nowhere did I state that some men do not need to achieve higher end TT/FT levels to experience relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.
I have stated numerous times on the forum over the years that many men will tend to do better with levels on the higher end let alone with a trough FT 20-30 ng/dL or sligtly higher.
Most doctors in the know would tell you the same!
Some men may very well NEED to run higher levels (far from common) or WANT to run higher levels (very common).
Never had an issue with one choosing to run higher-end trough levels if they feel great overall let alone overall blood markers are healthy.
If you took the time to look into things deeper you would clearly see that I am trying to stress the point that most men would never need to achieve absurd TROUGH TT 1500-2000 ng/dL range with absurd TROUGH FT 50-80ng/dL to experience relief/improvement of low-T symptoms let alone the overall beneficial effects of having healthy T levels!
Misinformation spewed on the bro forums let alone by the blast/cruisers.
Absurdly high T is where it's at bruh, high SHBG bruh.....LMFAO!
Top it all off that many of these same individuals claiming that they need to be running these absurdly high trough FT levels were jacked up on T from the get-go let alone many never have even given a lower dosed protocol a fighting chance.
If you want to get into the sensitivity of the AR and CAG repeat length (short/long).....sure some outliers may very well need absurdly high levels but again men with higher CAG repeat lengths are far from common.
The only way to truly know if you are one who would fall under such would be to have genetic testing done which is expensive!
What dose of T let alone blood levels one needs comes down to the sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor), CAG repeat length (short/long), SHBG, bodyweight.
Yes, there are men that can achieve even 1200ng/dl total with sub q snd they are very rare. And with your favourite sub q they will be even far morr rare.
Many men can easily achieve healthy let alone absurdly high trough TT/FT on 100-150mg T/week.....no brainer here!
Unfortunately, you would have no clue though right seeing as you and many have never tested their FT using the most accurate assays.....gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (especially in cases of altered SHBG)!
You did state.....For your information I started TRT with a total test level in the high 500s(varying from 300-400s) and SHBG of 50, but I had most of the symptoms.
Coming from the same guy with high SHBG 50 nmol/L that never had even tested his FT using the most accurate assays.....LMFAO!
If someone happens to get a bit higher levels for a few weeks there is nothing scary or dangerous in that, thats why we do blood work and he will just lower his dose IF the way he feels amd the side effects suggests so, not just a number above a compromised reference range. If a guy happens to get at even at 1500, feels perfect, has no side effects, lipids, blood counts, blood pressure and all other health markers are good why should he lower it? I definetelly wouldnt, my doctor as well. Nothing in the medical literature suggests these levels are harmful long term, and even if some problems start to occur due to some undiagnosed health problem like sleep apnea for example we do regular blood work, they will appear, the guy will lower his dose and fix the immediate problems while addressing the root cause
Tell us something we already do not know!
Fuck the current reference range.....low end used to be 350 and high end 1200 ng/dL!
Never have I stated on here that one needs to stay within a reference range.
Comes down to the individual and where one feels best while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential sides and keeping blood markers healthy long-term!
Again most men would easily do well with a trough TT 1000-1200 ng/dL and trough FT in the 20-30ng/dL range.
Does that mean running higher T levels above the top-end TT 1200 ng/dL or FT 30 ng/dL is dangerous or scary because it would be considered supra-physiological.....who the f**k stated such.....NOT ME.
Let's be very clear here nowhere did I state that it is dangerous let alone scary if someone is running a TT 1000-2000 ng/dL or FT 30-80 ng/dL.
If you think 1200ng/dl is supraphysiological because it is outside the range I really see no point in continuing discussion with you
Guess everything I stand for on the forum went over your f**kn head.....LOL!
madman
Super Moderator
Make yourself a sticky note to post up on your mirror when you are brushing that stink out your mouth!
Piss poor advice telling someone to jump in on the higher dose when first starting trt.
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