Testosterone and depression ..Dr. Mark Gordon

[JimBob]

In a podcast, Dr. Gordon made this remark which I think may be worthy of discussion in light of some guys wanting to go on testosterone as a monotherapy.

"...we used to get patients coming to us who are on testosterone four to six months later. They say, you know doc at the beginning of treatment. I felt really good, but now I don't feel as well [00:17:00] and that's because the use of testosterone shuts off another hormone luteinizing hormone that converts testosterone to pregnenolone and if that doesn't happen you lose these 11 regulatory hormones that deal with depression."

 

[Charliebizz]

I’ve always been afraid of long term effects of testosterone alone. I don’t tolerate hcg,preg,dhea well. I heard the podcast as well and as a guy on testo only it really worries me

 

[madman]

In a podcast, Dr. Gordon made this remark which I think may be worthy of discussion in light of some guys wanting to go on testosterone as a monotherapy.

"...we used to get patients coming to us who are on testosterone four to six months later. They say, you know doc at the beginning of treatment. I felt really good, but now I don't feel as well [00:17:00] and that's because the use of testosterone shuts off another hormone luteinizing hormone that converts testosterone to pregnenolone and if that doesn't happen you lose these 11 regulatory hormones that deal with depression."

My protocol.....testosterone enanthate 150 mg/week (75 mg every 3.5 days) strictly sub-q injected into abdominal fat.

2 years on test only and have no interest in adding hcg as I feel great!

I suffered from depression in my teens and early 20s.....things improved in my 30s-40s but still had ups/downs.

Not exactly sure when low t started but all I know is since starting trt 2 years ago my mood is stellar and I have not experienced any depression and if anything I feel amazing overall (mentally/physically).

 

[BenM]

I don't think this necessarily applies to everyone, of course we are all different. I'm on a T only protocol as well and six months in, I don't feel as if my depression is coming back at this point, that's not to say it won't in future though.

 

[JimBob]

Am I understanding Dr. Gordon correctly? If you supplement with pregnenolone you will circumvent the problem of losing the 11 regulatory hormones that deal with depression? Sounds simple enough.

 

[Outcome]

Am I understanding Dr. Gordon correctly? Not sure if it's the correct interpretation but that's my read on it too. Thinking about pregnenalone now. Does hcg fill the role of luteinizing hormone in this instance?

 

[Gman86]

My protocol.....testosterone enanthate 150 mg/week (75 mg every 3.5 days) strictly sub-q injected into abdominal fat.

2 years on test only and have no interest in adding hcg as I feel great!

I suffered from depression in my teens and early 20s.....things improved in my 30s-40s but still had ups/downs.

Not exactly sure when low t started but all I know is since starting trt 2 years ago my mood is stellar and I have not experienced any depression and if anything I feel amazing overall (mentally/physically).

You don't take pregnenolone? Just testosterone?

And do you mind if I ask where your SHBG and E2 sit?

 

[Gman86]

Am I understanding Dr. Gordon correctly? Not sure if it's the correct interpretation but that's my read on it too. Thinking about pregnenalone now. Does hcg fill the role of luteinizing hormone in this instance?

I think it can, sometimes. On Pregnyl HCG, my testicles were much fuller, it greatly added to my testosterone level, and my DHEA-S level almost doubled. On Empower's HCG, my testicles are much smaller, I get no addition to my testosterone level, and my DHEA-S is back down to where it was pre-TRT. So I think, theoretically, HCG can stimulate the leydig cells with LH, and backfill downstream hormones, but not always. At least in my experience.

IMO, you'll basically know when HCG is doing it's job, especially if you're secondary. Testicles will be bigger, due to the leydig cells being stimulated by the LH signal, loads will be bigger, total testosterone will get a boost (if you're secondary), and you should see a spike in DHEA-S.

 

[JimBob]

Taking fertility out of the equation, does HCG eliminate the need for pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation?
Does pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation eliminate the need for HCG, if we take fertility out of the equation?

 

[madman]

You don't take pregnenolone? Just testosterone?

And do you mind if I ask where your SHBG and E2 sit?

No pregnenolone or DHEA supplementation.

I stated my SHBG and estradiol in a previous thread!


https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/the-thread-for-dialed-in-dudes.17334/.

 

[Gman86]

No pregnenolone or DHEA supplementation.

I stated my SHBG and estradiol in a previous thread!


https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/the-thread-for-dialed-in-dudes.17334/.

The link seems to be not working atm. But i just looked up the thread. Your SHBG and E2 are almost identical. Everyone’s different obviously, but there definitely seems to be something to this whole thing about matching SHBG to E2. Either way, thanks for the reply Madman, appreciate it. Now back to the original thread. I hate to derail threads, but my curiosity always gets the better of me lol.

 

[Vitamin_C]

hormones are only a portion of things that play into mood, I see many users on this board live and die by hormones for the answer to well being when its much more complicated. Hormones do play a role, but so does gut health, inflammation, methylation etc.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Nine years ago I was being treated for low-level depression with an SSRI. My response was, perhaps, adequate. Having been on a daily protocol, 16mg of enanthate every morning, and HCG, 200 twice weekly, my depression lifted and I feel astonishingly well (now 61 years old). I have used HCG and gone through periods where I abandoned it and felt no different. I take it now because the literature supporting it seems rational.

 

[Charliebizz]

Ssri have helped me with my so called “low hormone symptoms” more then trt/hrt has. I’m only on a low dose of lexapro 2.5 mg per day. I’m not saying hrt doesn’t help many but sometimes it’s the chicken or the egg. What is causing what hormones messing up
Neurotransmitters or Vice versa

 

[Dansk]

There is a lot that goes into depression than just one chemical being low (serotonin)
There is a lot that goes into skin cancer other than getting unprotected sun exposure.
There is a lot that goes into CAD (Coronary Artery Disease) Than just cholesterol being over 200.
See a pattern here??

 

[Gianluca]

In a podcast, Dr. Gordon made this remark which I think may be worthy of discussion in light of some guys wanting to go on testosterone as a monotherapy.

"...we used to get patients coming to us who are on testosterone four to six months later. They say, you know doc at the beginning of treatment. I felt really good, but now I don't feel as well [00:17:00] and that's because the use of testosterone shuts off another hormone luteinizing hormone that converts testosterone to pregnenolone and if that doesn't happen you lose these 11 regulatory hormones that deal with depression."

this happened to me, right 8 months into TRT, started to develop anxiety and BP going up, also I remember achieving an important goal in my life and not expressing any joy for it, at that time me and doc thought it was my elevated E2 causing anxiety increase BP, after that, things just got worse over the time, but I got to realize this not long time ago, in fact I need to talk to a Doc and focus on Pregnelonone and DHEA

 

[Vitamin_C]

This is even more speculative than the estradiol posts on here. Depression is a blanket term used by doctors meaning “something ain’t right with this guy’s mood.” They don’t know shit scientifically speaking. They thought it was simply a serotonin deficiency for so long. Many still do even with recent studies showing otherwise.

Science is probably farther behind on mental health than hormones. Just s bunch of guess work with only the top tier doctors making new headway.

That’s my $0.02 anyway. From my personal experience I can’t fathom trt making depression worse unless e2 is too low.

Yeah, the whole "chemical imbalance" is actually a really flimsy theory peddled by drug makers to push their medications. Dopamine and serotonin are just pieces in an overall puzzle, they know little about mental health, lots of guess work. I would say proper methylation is 10x more appropriate for understanding mood, people need to be getting genetic tests and tailor their health around that. So many factors, your gut, your vitamin D levels, methylation status, nutritional status. You can't just take testosterone and think that solves the equation.

 

[antelopers]

I was a patient of Dr Gordon's at one time. I don't mean to be critical of the guy, but my experience with him left a bad taste in my mouth and I have some doubts about the necessity of pregnenolone for the average guy on TRT.

While I like him very much on a personal level, and I don't doubt he is a very intelligent man, I had issues dealing with his rigid protocol and what I feel is a money grab from his patients.

I was on TRT for 4 years before going under his care and had no sort of deficiency in pregnenolone or any of the downstream hormones, but he was insisting I take mega doses of it anyway which left me in pretty bad shape. He sells these supplements through his office at a very marked up price. He also insists on you taking the brands of multivitamin, b complex, and other nutrients that he sells through his office, which alone can total a couple hundred bucks a month.

He also wants all of his patients taking clomid 2-3x per week on TRT which for most men does nothing to restore LH if injectable test is being used, except for usually add unwanted side effects - and as a lot of us know, depression is a very common side effect of Clomid use. Clomid also lowers IGF-1, and conveniently, Dr Gordon sells you his own brand of IGF-1 boosting supplements to counteract this problem.

Dr Gordon also, unfortunately, is not up to date with the sensitive estradiol test and the lab he works with only use the standard assay.

He has one testosterone dosage he uses for all patients and will not adjust it. His office fee for refilling a testosterone prescription, if you don't get the military discount, is $375 - that does not include the price of testosterone itself or shipping.

My new doctor explained to me that while there is a pregenenolone pathway activated by LH, the bulk of it comes from the adrenals anyway which in his practice he has not seen affected by normal TRT programs.

I don't doubt it helps some men, especially those with pre-existing adrenal inefficiencies that require them to need pregnenolone supplementation of some kind.

But its important to remember, just because taking something makes you feel good, doesn't mean that you were actually deficient either! A healthy male might feel good off of a shot of testosterone even without being deficient! There are SO many factors to depression besides pregnenolone.

A lot of the doctors in the TRT world make a lot of money selling these ancillary products, and it is in their best interest to sell them to you when they may not be needed for most guys if their only problem is testosterone related.

 

[Gianluca]

I was a patient of Dr Gordon's at one time. I don't mean to be critical of the guy, but my experience with him left a bad taste in my mouth and I have some doubts about the necessity of pregnenolone for the average guy on TRT.

While I like him very much on a personal level, and I don't doubt he is a very intelligent man, I had issues dealing with his rigid protocol and what I feel is a money grab from his patients.

I was on TRT for 4 years before going under his care and had no sort of deficiency in pregnenolone or any of the downstream hormones, but he was insisting I take mega doses of it anyway which left me in pretty bad shape. He sells these supplements through his office at a very marked up price. He also insists on you taking the brands of multivitamin, b complex, and other nutrients that he sells through his office, which alone can total a couple hundred bucks a month.

He also wants all of his patients taking clomid 2-3x per week on TRT which for most men does nothing to restore LH if injectable test is being used, except for usually add unwanted side effects - and as a lot of us know, depression is a very common side effect of Clomid use.

Dr Gordon also, unfortunately, is not up to date with the sensitive estradiol test and the lab he works with only use the standard assay.

He has one testosterone dosage he uses for all patients and will not adjust it. His office fee for refilling a testosterone prescription, if you don't get the military discount, is $375 - that does not include the price of testosterone itself or shipping.

My new doctor explained to me that while there is a pregenenolone pathway activated by LH, the bulk of it comes from the adrenals anyway which in his practice he has not seen affected by normal TRT programs.

I don't doubt it helps some men, especially those with pre-existing adrenal inefficiencies that require them to need pregnenolone supplementation of some kind.

But its important to remember, just because taking something makes you feel good, doesn't mean that you were actually deficient either! A healthy male might feel good off of a shot of testosterone even without being deficient! There are SO many factors to depression besides pregnenolone.

A lot of the doctors in the TRT world make a lot of money selling these ancillary products, and it is in their best interest to sell them to you when they may not be needed for most guys if their only problem is testosterone related.

that's a good point, this Dr Gordon doesn't sound so good as a HRT doc

 

[jws1300]

Ssri have helped me with my so called “low hormone symptoms” more then trt/hrt has. I’m only on a low dose of lexapro 2.5 mg per day. I’m not saying hrt doesn’t help many but sometimes it’s the chicken or the egg. What is causing what hormones messing up
Neurotransmitters or Vice versa

Well that is a low dose of Lexapro. I am considering going back on since testosterone replacement therapy while it has helped my fatigue I still have situational anxiety and anticipatory anxiety which gives me physical symptoms. I don’t really want to go back on it but looking back at my calendar I was doing better for about six months while on the medicine. I just feel off. At a loss where to go at this point.