What needle length for IM TRT? Thinking of changing from subQ to IM to feel better

[GeorgieBoy]

I've been doing subcutaneous injections daily for a while but don't feel that good with them. I've tried all sorts of dosages from 100mg/week to 200mg/week, but I still experience lots of brain fog, not much energy or motivation...

Some people claim they get higher levels on IM than subQ and more importantly that they feel a lot better with IM, so I've been thinking about trying something like twice/week IM instead of daily subQ. My shbg is pretty high so maybe I don't need to do daily subQ after all and I've never tried anything else.

For reference I'm very lean and in pretty good shape. Very clean diet + vit D/B and Magnesium supplements. Lab numbers are very good for lipids, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc...and I'm not on any (other) medication.

My question is what needle length do you guys use for IM? I've been using insulin syringes with 30G 5/16'' needles for subQ and my biggest concern with IM is scar tissue buildup over time, so I'd like to stick with 30G but obviously 5/16'' is going to be too short for IM.

I was thinking of trying 1/2'' needle length, is that too short?

 

[mooseman109]

I do 27ga 1/2" needle for shallow IM and it seems to work. I do Im 3 days and sub q 4 days. I notice no difference

 

[LerxstM4]

I also do exactly as mooseman109 above with 27g, 1/2". I swap between my delts and my ventroglutes and inject EOD.

 

[rayrock1]

mooseman when you do im test every 3 days is it the same days/time every week? do you breakdown the weekly hours by 3?

 

[madman]

I've been doing subcutaneous injections daily for a while but don't feel that good with them. I've tried all sorts of dosages from 100mg/week to 200mg/week and found I felt the least bad around 125mg/week, but nothing close to life changing. Still lots of brain fog, not much energy or motivation...

Some people claim they get higher levels on IM than subQ and more importantly that they feel a lot better with IM, so I've been thinking about trying something like twice/week IM instead of daily subQ. My shbg is pretty high so maybe I don't need to do daily subQ after all and I've never tried anything else.

For reference I'm very lean and in pretty good shape. Very clean diet + vit D/B and Magnesium supplements. Lab numbers are very good for lipids, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc...and I'm not on any (other) medication.

My question is what needle length do you guys use for IM? I've been using insulin syringes with 30G 5/16'' needles for subQ and my biggest concern with IM is scar tissue buildup over time, so I'd like to stick with 30G but obviously 5/16'' is going to be too short for IM.

I was thinking of trying 1/2'' needle length, is that too short?

1/2 (12.7 mm) will be just fine for shallow IM.

 

[Blackhawk]

I've tried all sorts of dosages from 100mg/week to 200mg/week and found I felt the least bad around 125mg/week,

Some people claim they get higher levels on IM than subQ

There a little misplaced logic there. If you've dosed at 200mg and don't feel better at that higher level, it doesn't make sense to do IM to effectively get "higher levels". That said, maybe IM will suit you better.

I inject subQ and it has never been a problem in terms of blood levels, but YMMV. I would not try to use 30g for IM, rather 29 or 27 g depending on oil carrier. 27 will be quick.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

There a little misplaced logic there. If you've dosed at 200mg and don't feel better at that higher level, it doesn't make sense to do IM to effectively get "higher levels". That said, maybe IM will suit you better.

I inject subQ and it has never been a problem in terms of blood levels, but YMMV. I would not try to use 30g for IM, rather 29 or 27 g depending on oil carrier. 27 will be quick.

Why not use 30G for IM? Because of the time it would take or is it bad for another reason.

I heard some people say they feel much better with IM than subQ. I'm hoping that'll be the case for me. I'm also going to try 2x/week instead of ED, but in a few weeks after I move to IM, I don't want to change 2 variables at once and have no idea what made the change if something good happens.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

I do 27ga 1/2" needle for shallow IM and it seems to work. I do Im 3 days and sub q 4 days. I notice no difference

Thanks. I'm hoping it'll make a difference for me. So far with subQ it feels almost like the Test isn't working regardless of dosage. I'm thinking of trying 2x/week instead of daily injections. Have you tried less frequent injections?

 

[Blackhawk]

Why not use 30G for IM? Because of the time it would take or is it bad for another reason.

Just my personal perspective. Could be fine, but the longer the needle at that gauge the easier to bend the needle. 30g is quite small. YMMV

 

[Blackhawk]

it feels almost like the Test isn't working regardless of dosage.

Can you post your labs?

 

[Blackhawk]

I've tried all sorts of dosages

And how long do you remain on each different dose before trying something else?

It takes 6-8 weeks for levels to stabilize and 2-3 months for symptoms to fully stabilize at new dosage. Are you re-adjusting more frequently?

 

[GeorgieBoy]

And how long do you remain on each different dose before trying something else?

It takes 6-8 weeks for levels to stabilize and 2-3 months for symptoms to fully stabilize at new dosage. Are you re-adjusting more frequently?

I changed dosage about every 2 weeks. I could feel positive changes almost immediately after a few days (makes sense on daily injections) but then they would subside and I would go back to feeling terrible, so I just kept upping the dose from 100mg to 200mg/week, 25mg at a time. Finally I realized 125mg/week was where I felt the least terrible so I went back there and have been there for about 3 weeks now.

I'm getting labs done tomorrow to see what's going on. I ordered the 1/2'' insulin syringes to try IM and should get them hopefully tomorrow also.

 

[Blackhawk]

I changed dosage about every 2 weeks. I could feel positive changes almost immediately after a few days (makes sense on daily injections) but then they would subside and I would go back to feeling terrible, so I just kept upping the dose from 100mg to 200mg/week, 25mg at a time. Finally I realized 125mg/week was where I felt the least terrible so I went back there and have been there for about 3 weeks now.

I'm getting labs done tomorrow to see what's going on. I ordered the 1/2'' insulin syringes to try IM and should get them hopefully tomorrow also.

I am sorry, but this is bad approach. You have to give it minimum 6-8 weeks, even better 8-12 weeks after every single change. Your body is confused because you have not reached a steady state at any dose.

The labs are also premature.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

I am sorry, but this is bad approach. You have to give it minimum 6-8 weeks, even better 8-12 weeks after every single change. Your body is confused because you have not reached a steady state at any dose.

The labs are also premature.

Really? But don't bodybuilders report feeling positive effects from Test very quickly? I know they're using more around 500mg/week as a beginner cycle, but shouldn't I start feeling good before 6-8 weeks at even a TRT dose?

 

[Blackhawk]

Yes really. I am not BS'ing you. This is not an AAS forum, it is a TRT forum. We are in it for the long haul, not trying to hack dosing for supraphysiological levels on a weekly basis.

When you start T, there is a honeymoon period when you are receiving the extra T from your dosing, plus the T your testicles are still producing. However, after several weeks, the testicles stop producing T. This is because the HPTA axis is shut down. There is so much T in the blood that the hypothalamus no longer responds. There is no reason for the testicles to produce more when there is already a high level. So, the honeymoon lasts a few weeks, then typically guys feel a let down. From there you just have to wait until the exogenous dose becomes the new norm.

Changing dose every couple weeks is the tail wagging the dog.

Not quite for the same reason, but when you readjust doses due to the half life of T cyp, it takes around 40 days to reach steady state, and longer for the body to actually fully adjust.

The half life of testsoterone: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/half-lives-of-medications-most-underrated-aspect-of-trt.10305/

EDIT: I do not know why that link is directing to Chrisler's post on page 2. Go to first post page 1 and start reading there.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

Yes really. I am not BS'ing you. This is not an AAS forum, it is a TRT forum. We are in it for the long haul, not trying to hack dosing for supraphysiological levels on a weekly basis.

When you start T, there is a honeymoon period when you are receiving the extra T from your dosing, plus the T your testicles are still producing. However, after several weeks, the testicles stop producing T. This is because the HPTA axis is shut down. There is so much T in the blood that the hypothalamus no longer responds. There is no reason for the testicles to produce more when there is already a high level. So, the honeymoon lasts a few eeks, then typically guys feel alet down. From there you just have to wait until the exogenous dose becomes the new norm.

Not quite for the same reason, but when you readjust doses due to the half life of T cyp, it takes around 40 days to reach steady state, and longer for the body to actually fully adjust.

The half life of testsoterone: Half lives of medications. Most underrated aspect of TRT

Thanks for the link, that discussion is very interesting. But it seems to me that while you get to 2x the dose in your system after 40 days, you get to very close to 2x the dose much faster than that.

The half life progression is essentially an infinite sum of the form 1 + 1/(2^n) = 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16, etc....where the rate of progression gets exponentially smaller since each new added term is half of the previous one.

That exponential progression decay means that most of the impact of that half liife phenomenon is going to be felt within a much smaller time frame than 40 days.

For example, look at steroidplotter.com and plug in 20mg/day of Test C over 8 weeks. You can see that you reach your maximum of 14.7 mg/day release after 40 days, but even after just 2 weeks you're already at 13mg/day, which is around 90% of the way to your final value.

 

[Blackhawk]

Read around this forum in depth and you will find that what I am saying is well supported.

And perhaps other members will chime in. particularly, @madman always has comments pertinent to this discussion.

Good luck!

 

[mooseman109]

mooseman when you do im test every 3 days is it the same days/time every week? do you breakdown the weekly hours by 3?

I do a rotation, so fri, sat and sun are shallow IM in the gluts, all other days are around the waist sub q

 

[mooseman109]

Thanks. I'm hoping it'll make a difference for me. So far with subQ it feels almost like the Test isn't working regardless of dosage. I'm thinking of trying 2x/week instead of daily injections. Have you tried less frequent injections?

There has been discussion amongst some of us that sub q is not as effective. I started. like a lot of us, at 200 mg every 2 weeks. I went to weekly and then every 3.5 days. Then jumped to daily a couple years back I have similar free t numbers taking 84 mg a week as I did with 100 mg/ week. It has helped to stabilize my HCT, which still gets high

 

[GeorgieBoy]

There has been discussion amongst some of us that sub q is not as effective. I started. like a lot of us, at 200 mg every 2 weeks. I went to weekly and then every 3.5 days. Then jumped to daily a couple years back I have similar free t numbers taking 84 mg a week as I did with 100 mg/ week. It has helped to stabilize my HCT, which still gets high

That's interesting. I don't want to change too many variables at once going from subQ to IM and also from daily to 2x/week, so I'm just going to switch from subQ to IM at first while staying on daily injections and see if that makes any difference.