So who is happy with TRT? Who wish they never started?

[HyperResponder]

GMan, I didn't realize you used a nandrolone base. I guess I hadn't seen you comment on it in a while. It's actually pretty interesting that you've made it work for you and you respond well to it. Are you still using it? Nandrolone is pretty polarizing, it either works great or it's pretty awful. The negatives for some include: ED, mental health changes (anxiety, irrational thinking or obsessing), increased prolactin, and hct generally goes up. It's been great for my joints but it definitely messes with my head. I haven't been able to stay on it.

Do you mind sharing what kind of protocol you were using? A lot of people start with a Test base and add a little Nandrolone. This seems to make people have a really hard time. Others on forums talk about starting with Nandrolone only and then adding enough Test to aromatize to meet their Estrogen needs. Nandrolone on its own doesn’t aromatize to estrogen or DHT. The YouTuber “plates not dates” even did the protocol without T entirely but had to supplement with estrogen gel to keep his E up.

Some of this could be internet rumor, or different outcomes for different bodies. How did you go about using Nandrolone?

 

[Gman86]

Thank you for this. I’ve never really considered a Nandrolone based protocol. I always saw guys on here talking about it and it seemed like a big departure from the standard wisdom. But like you said, time to think out of the box.
There is no giving up here. I did try to come off TRT during the pandemic lockdowns and it wasn’t an option. Those 6 weeks were really bad. Best thing to do is to keep moving forward and trying the best I can. I’ll look into this you suggest.

Glad that u have this no quit attitude. I promise u that u will eventually figure out a protocol that works great for u. As long as u don’t give up, and are always up to try new things, and think outside the box, if needed, u will 100% figure it out. The only guys that don’t ever figure out how to feel good on HRT are the guys that give up, and/ or the guys that aren’t willing to think outside the box and use approaches that aren’t the norm. In this HRT game u have to be open to any and all possibilities/ options. And u have to be willing to trial and error new approaches. Nothing will ever change if u don’t implement change. U do the same things, expect the same results

 

[Gman86]

Appreciate you sharing your experiences with this. I've seen you mention it here in the past as well. Interesting to hear that some guys switching to the nandrolone based protocol report feeling their emotions are more stable, as when nandrolone is added to a test based protocol, the exact opposite often occurs.

I saw that you mentioned you are using proviron, etc in addition to nandrolone and test. Do you happen to have labs showing your DHT levels on a nandrolone based protocol with low dose test from when you weren't using any DHT derivatives?

I’m not currently taking Proviron. Used it for a little bit, but didn’t notice any benefits over primobolan, as far as mood and sexual function goes, so I just stick with primo now, as primo also comes with added gym/ muscle benefits, while proviron doesn’t offer those benefits. The only benefit that proviron offers, body composition/ gym wise, is that it will decrease water retention, and make u look a little more cut

But ya, here’s all the labs I had done while I experimented with a nandrolone base. Even tho I ended up doing well on it, I got off of it due to wanting to be as fertile as possible. Looking back, I’m not sure I needed to get off the nandrolone base to do that. But at the time, I was under the impression that deca was more suppressive to fertility than test. Possibly due to nandrolone being a progestin. My gf is currently pregnant, and she got pregnant the 1st month trying, while I was on test, deca and primo. Along with 1000iu’s/ week of Pregnyl HCG to boost fertility. My deca dose was, and still is, 100mg per week. Less than the 200mg/ week I was using when I was on the nandrolone base, but if 100mg/ week of deca didn’t cause me any issues getting my gf pregnant, I doubt 200mg/ week would have been that much of an issue

Always injected both test and deca EOD btw. And also injected HCG EOD, whenever I implemented it. And labs were always the morning of an injection day, prior to injecting for that day



4-2-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 42mg/ week
HCG - 525iu’s/ week

Ultrasensitive E2 - 24 (quest)



5-8-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
NO HCG

Ultrasensitive E2 - 34 (Quest)






5-20-20 (Labcorp)
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s HCG/ week


SHBG 36.7 (16.5 - 55.9)





5-26-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s HCG/ week (Empower)


Ultrasensitive E2 - 32 (Quest)




7-15-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s HCG/ week (Safasi brand)



Ultrasensitive E2 - 45 (Quest)







8-29-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 84mg/ week
No HCG

Total T - 780 (250-1100 ng/dL)

Free T - 167.7 (46.0-224.0)

SHBG - 39.5 (16.5-55.9)

E2 ultrasensitive - 46

Prolactin - 11.1 (4.0-15.2)

DHEA-S - 632 (138.5-475.2)

DHT - 68 (16-79)

T3 total - 116 (76-181)

T4 total - 4.9 (4.5-10.5)

Free T3 - 3.4 (2.3-4.2)

Free t4 - 0.9 (0.8-1.8)

RT3 - 14.2 (9.2-24.1)

TSH - 0.794 (0.4-4.5)

Iron, Total - 155 (50-180)

Iron % saturation - 50% (15-60)

Iron Binding Capacity - 294 (250-425)

UIBC - 148 (111-343)

Ferritin - 49 (30-400)

CHOLESTEROL, TOTAL - 253

HDL CHOLESTEROL - 56 (>40)

TRIGLYCERIDES - 50 (<150)

LDL-CHOLESTEROL - 187

PSA, TOTAL 0.4 (<4.0)

Glucose - 98

HGB - 17.6 (13.2-17.1g/dl)

HCT - 53.9 (38.5-50.0%)

 

[Gman86]

Do you mind sharing what kind of protocol you were using? A lot of people start with a Test base and add a little Nandrolone. This seems to make people have a really hard time. Others on forums talk about starting with Nandrolone only and then adding enough Test to aromatize to meet their Estrogen needs. Nandrolone on its own doesn’t aromatize to estrogen or DHT. The YouTuber “plates not dates” even did the protocol without T entirely but had to supplement with estrogen gel to keep his E up.

Some of this could be internet rumor, or different outcomes for different bodies. How did you go about using Nandrolone?

Ya it’s very interesting how differently nandrolone works and makes people feel, depending on how it’s implemented, and what it’s implemented with

I wish it didn’t make people feel drastically different, depending on how they use it. Makes it very difficult for many to make heads or tails of what this compound does, and how it’s going to make them feel. Basically just difficult for people to know what to expect when implementing it. Which is so annoying, imo lol. I wish nandrolone as a compound was more straight forward, and consistent, as far as how it effects people goes.

Luckily, if u’ve done enough research on the compound, u can learn how to give the person trying it the best chance of it working for them/ understand what to do if someone does end up not feeling great while using it. There’s options that seem to help guys feel better on it, more often than not. A main one is adding in a DHT derivative to ur protocol, when nandrolone is in the mix. Nandrolone increases the rate at which testosterone converts to estrogen, as well as sensitizes estrogen and prolactin receptors. So not only can it increase the amount of testosterone that gets converted into estrogen, but it can make ur receptors more sensitive to whatever estrogen and prolactin are currently floating around in ur system. Aka making the estrogen and prolactin in ur system feel more potent/ feel like u have more estrogen and prolactin in ur system than ur serum levels of both may reflect. And since certain dht derivatives can lower E2/ inhibit E2‘s effects within the body, it can help mitigate sides when nandrolone is being used with too much of a compound that aromatizes at a moderate to high rate, like testosterone. And since estrogen is the main stimulator of prolactin production/ release in the male body, when u lower E2 with a DHT derivative, it can indirectly lower prolactin as well.

 

[NuSciencePeptides]

Otherwise feeling good?

Yes, overall fine, just not loving the sticks.

 

[HyperResponder]

Ya it’s very interesting how differently nandrolone works and makes people feel, depending on how it’s implemented, and what it’s implemented with

I wish it didn’t make people feel drastically different, depending on how they use it. Makes it very difficult for many to make heads or tails of what this compound does, and how it’s going to make them feel. Basically just difficult for people to know what to expect when implementing it. Which is so annoying, imo lol. I wish nandrolone as a compound was more straight forward, and consistent, as far as how it effects people goes.

Luckily, if u’ve done enough research on the compound, u can learn how to give the person trying it the best chance of it working for them/ understand what to do if someone does end up not feeling great while using it. There’s options that seem to help guys feel better on it, more often than not. A main one is adding in a DHT derivative to ur protocol, when nandrolone is in the mix. Nandrolone increases the rate at which testosterone converts to estrogen, as well as sensitizes estrogen and prolactin receptors. So not only can it increase the amount of testosterone that gets converted into estrogen, but it can make ur receptors more sensitive to whatever estrogen and prolactin are currently floating around in ur system. Aka making the estrogen and prolactin in ur system feel more potent/ feel like u have more estrogen and prolactin in ur system than ur serum levels of both may reflect. And since certain dht derivatives can lower E2/ inhibit E2‘s effects within the body, it can help mitigate sides when nandrolone is being used with too much of a compound that aromatizes at a moderate to high rate, like testosterone. And since estrogen is the main stimulator of prolactin production/ release in the male body, when u lower E2 with a DHT derivative, it can indirectly lower prolactin as well.

You've been super helpful and inspiring. I'm certainly going to try a nandrolone based protocol and titrate up the T to meet the estrogen needs. Thinking outside of the box feels liberating. I've been messing with the same few tools for years more or less.

Did you always add Primo, and if so, how much and how often? Was it reading and research that made you add the primo, or did you get side effects that led you there? I keep seeing people discuss emotional flattening with nandrolone based protocols? Some people describe missing the assertiveness associated with T.

Again this have been a bright spot on the journey. Looking forward to starting.

 

[Whatzup]

I don't wish I never started but in my case maybe it was pointless because my total was 350+ at the time and dr said I should.
On cypionate trying different doses raised my HTC and crashed my ferritin and raised my BP.
Now that I've been off for over a month my ferritin is over 125 before 7, hematocrit now 47 before 53.5, blood pressure now 117 to 125 before 131 to 149ish. I feel I have more energy now that my ferritin went up.
I'm going to test in a month or so just to see were I stand naturally.

 

[Wingy]

Hi,
As someone with a total T of 230 at 42 years old. And reading these boards as well as numerous research articles. Who is ultimately happy with going on TRT? What benefits did you see? What negatives did you personally see? Its hard to really discern whether the benefits outweighs the risks etc. How is everyone's libido? What ester are you on and how much/how often?

Just trying to get some feedback from people currently on TRT or that were on and went off due to side efe was dofects.

I'm fairly new to it but due to doctors I'm not getting good results. My general practitioner didn't know what she was doing so sent me to endo that's about the same. I'm on 140 mg every 2 weeks. I feel good about 2 days out of 14. My total was 160 to start and is about that after 2 weeks. After 1 week I'm at 435. I'm trying to get her to switch me to weekly or more. They said I'm on a very usual dosage.

 

[George9]

I couldn't be happier with my TRT results. My doctor started me on 100 mg/wk (one injection/wk) of testosterone cypionate and told me to eat an extra 500 cal/day. I was 63 years old, 193 pounds and 20% body fat and after the first year was 205 pounds and 16% body fat, a gain of 16 pounds muscle and loss of 4 pounds fat. I am 5'9" and now 69 years old. Last Monday I weighed 182 pounds with 7.3% body fat.

My biggest complaint about TRT is that your muscles grow faster than your tendons and as a result I blew out my rotator cuffs.

 

[Systemlord]

My biggest complaint about TRT is that your muscles grow faster than your tendons and as a result I blew out my rotator cuffs.

This past year, I really started responding to the TRT, and let me tell you, I couldn’t lift heavy for the longest time, because my elbows couldn’t take it. My elbows would pop and click on 40-50 pound dumb bells.

 

[CKO]

Wingy, that does is pretty low. If I understand you're getting 70 mg a week. Your labs aren't even at the mid level of measurement. Most TRT providers will want you at the upper end of the scale closer to 800-1000. The dose you're taking, in my opinion, is just enough to shut down your natural production and not enough to make you feel better. I would highly consider going to another provider

 

[BigTex]

Been going at this for over 43 years now I have no idea what it is like to not do testosterone and do not want to find out. I have spent the majority of my life using and enjoyed every day of it. Have to admit is has been much more enjoyable switching to Sub-q vs IM.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Wingy, that does is pretty low. If I understand you're getting 70 mg a week. Your labs aren't even at the mid level of measurement. Most TRT providers will want you at the upper end of the scale closer to 800-1000. The dose you're taking, in my opinion, is just enough to shut down your natural production and not enough to make you feel better. I would highly consider going to another provider

He's doing well. The 'right' dose and frequency is the one that provides the most benefits. Yes, it might take time; maybe a couple of years. Before the Internet, if a man received 200 mg every 2 weeks and experienced some improvements sexually, physically and mentally, he was okay with that. He had no frame of reference. Having more information doesn't always lead to a better outcome. Many of us know as much as our doctors or even more, in some cases! And still, some of us struggle, searching for a protocol that provides maximum benefits.

 

[Wingy]

Wingy, that does is pretty low. If I understand you're getting 70 mg a week. Your labs aren't even at the mid level of measurement. Most TRT providers will want you at the upper end of the scale closer to 800-1000. The dose you're taking, in my opinion, is just enough to shut down your natural production and not enough to make you feel better. I would highly consider going to another provider

I'm on 140 once every 2 weeks. This is my 4th Dr. My general practitioner had me on 200 every 2 weeks and I wanted more often to stop the roller coaster. She said it should have built up in my system and didn't so I need a endo. I have ordered my own testosterone on the Internet and did my own thing to feel better but I can tell it's bad grade. I really don't know what to do.

 

[BigTex]

Let us know how you feel after 20 years.

Next year will be 44 years of this. Still have no problem doing my next injection. I know what will happen if I stop. That keeps me going.

 

[jmeineck]

I'm on 140 once every 2 weeks. This is my 4th Dr. My general practitioner had me on 200 every 2 weeks and I wanted more often to stop the roller coaster. She said it should have built up in my system and didn't so I need a endo. I have ordered my own testosterone on the Internet and did my own thing to feel better but I can tell it's bad grade. I really don't know what to do.

You are on your 4th General practitioner, seems to me that is part of your problem. I would recommend going to a TRT specialist like Male excel. That is what I did and the reason I went to a TRT specialist was to ensure I was getting a reliable source of medication. They set up a micro dose program of 60mg every other day/210mg per week to start. At the end of the first prescription I still had some symptoms of Low T, so the upped the dose to 80mg every other day 80mg/ 280mg per week. Now my Low T symptoms are virtually gone. And I'm feeling good. Dosing is different for each person which again is a good reason to work with a TRT specialist. These are just my opinions, I not an expert by any means.

 

[granger]

lol 60mg EOD is not microdose... folks START at that a week ...210mg a week is actually very high and more of a "fitness" dosing than optimization.

I would expect something else going on and MACRO dose of 280mg a week is what makes u feel "ok". ie over a gram of test a week is VERY high and imagine ur levels are over 1000... at anyrate that is a brute force just like taking morphine to feel no pain when an advil would actually make u OK...

most clinics are VERY similar to pill mills and just legal steroid pushers, and because they give what u wanted u THINK they are all about your health.

like opiates of course MORE feels WAY better, but that does not mean its good for your health. this goes for canna clinics rx 7g a day to every person who walks in and pays the $ when actually 0.5g would be more than enough for vast majority.. and opiates can make people more productive get rid of brain fog and ADHD, never get sick, and even train harder as no pains....

If a clinic starts u at over 100mg a week chances are its closer to a pill mill/legal steroids than actual health clinic...

also to wingy, its possible something else is your problem T isnt answer for everything and going in thinking it is puts you in that spot where u want more and more till by brute force u to feel better and is beyond HRT and again more analogous to getting morphine when advil wth a tylenol is all u need and probabably better for your actual health, even though of course feel better on the morphine. you may THINK its tottaly different but both cause dependance and BOTH are affecting hormones morphine is just dopamine instead of testosterone.

and on the note of new oral testosterone, while they SAY its bypassing liver, your either shitting out 200mg of test OR you are taxing your liver... the 300-500mg of Jatenzo oral is going somewhere and dont think u are pooping out 90%....could be wrong but id be skeptical.

 

[NuSciencePeptides]

Some members I are on daily shots, lol!

Sub-q daily yes, I have thought about doing that.

 

[George9]

Sub-q daily yes, I have thought about doing that.

I inject daily testosterone cypionate/oil solution with an insulin syringe at 90 degrees with 1/2" (12.7 mm) needle. Have done this for two years with no problems. These are IM injections because my skin/fat layer is less than 4 mm in my thighs, delts, and glutes. If you do a true subcutaneous injection between the skin and fat layer with an oil solution you will have a problem with hard, red inflamed lumps that last for days. This happened to my wife and discouraged her from injections so much that she went back to creams.

 

[NuSciencePeptides]

I inject daily testosterone cypionate/oil solution with an insulin syringe at 90 degrees with 1/2" (12.7 mm) needle. Have done this for two years with no problems. These are IM injections because my skin/fat layer is less than 4 mm in my thighs, delts, and glutes. If you do a true subcutaneous injection between the skin and fat layer with an oil solution you will have a problem with hard, red inflamed lumps that last for days. This happened to my wife and discouraged her from injections so much that she went back to creams.

Thank you