Primo fo estrogen management!

[eli]

Thanks so much for remembering to post ur labs, appreciate it. Wow, when u get legit primo it really is a super strong ai. This has been my experience as well. Is ur primo prescribed or do u get it UGL?

I really wish it would become legal in the U.S. to prescribe one day. Would 100% eliminate the need for any guy on HRT to use an ai ever again. And the dosages they would have to use would be so low.

It lowers E2 but nothing like an AI.
I get some nasty side effects from AIs, side effects irrelevant to estrogen levels.

 

[Stoak]

Your E2 is very low tho.... No joint pain or low e2 sides??

26 E2 is low? It's quite optimal for me and what I have read. I am a big fan of Dr Rand and his range is in the 20s. The current experiment has proven to me that at least for me it isn't a ratio T:E2 but an absolute number and in the 20s is best for me.

 

[eli]

26 E2 is low? It's quite optimal for me and what I have read. I am a big fan of Dr Rand and his range is in the 20s. The current experiment has proven to me that at least for me it isn't a ratio T:E2 but an absolute number and in the 20s is best for me.

What's your SHBG? Free T?

I don't think it's TT to E2 ratio either

 

[Gman86]

26 E2 is low? It's quite optimal for me and what I have read. I am a big fan of Dr Rand and his range is in the 20s. The current experiment has proven to me that at least for me it isn't a ratio T:E2 but an absolute number and in the 20s is best for me.

I’m curious if ur SHBG is around 26. I’ve seen guys say that they feel best with their E2 right around where their SHBG is. Obv that’s not the case for everyone. But would be curious how close ur SHBG is to 26

 

[Gman86]

It lowers E2 but nothing like an AI.
I get some nasty side effects from AIs, side effects irrelevant to estrogen levels.

Exactly. It’s the best of both worlds. It manages E2, while also bringing with it some added benefits of the compound itself. I’ve said it a few times, but I really do hope it becomes legal to prescribe in most or all countries, and guys get just use low dose primo to manage E2 and to a degree prolactin, and don’t have to ever use AI’s ever again

 

[Stoak]

I’m curious if ur SHBG is around 26. I’ve seen guys say that they feel best with their E2 right around where their SHBG is. Obv that’s not the case for everyone. But would be curious how close ur SHBG is to 26

My guess is that it is much lower than that. Probably 8-15. It's usually 26 or lower on just 160mg of test. I didn't get Free T and excessive testing bc I didn't do this testing thru my doctor. I used a workaround to testing bc I am in a state that doesn't allow self ordered pay for bloods. I wanted to see if this path worked before paying for extra tests. My free T is probably 80-100 best guess but in the end all guesses. All I can tell you is how I feel and it is pretty damn good. As good as I have ever felt on TRT and I have felt dialed in on that. I'm just bigger and stronger using this level.

 

[eli]

I’m curious if ur SHBG is around 26. I’ve seen guys say that they feel best with their E2 right around where their SHBG is. Obv that’s not the case for everyone. But would be curious how close ur SHBG is to 26

My SHBG is 7-13, E2 at those levels has me feeling like crap, low-mid 20s where I feel best (only with injections) with cream on testicles, E2 number doesn't make a difference in how I feel oddly

 

[eli]

Exactly. It’s the best of both worlds. It manages E2, while also bringing with it some added benefits of the compound itself. I’ve said it a few times, but I really do hope it becomes legal to prescribe in most or all countries, and guys get just use low dose primo to manage E2 and to a degree prolactin, and don’t have to ever use AI’s ever again

Yea I was so hesitant to touch it because everytime I've taken AIs or DHT derivatives, I just fell really bad, but not with primo so I've been confused on how it lowers E2. Glad I tried it

 

[Gman86]

My SHBG is 7-13, E2 at those levels has me feeling like crap, low-mid 20s where I feel best (only with injections) with cream on testicles, E2 number doesn't make a difference in how I feel oddly

Ya so ur not far off from ur E2 matching ur SHBG. U still feel best at a lower E2 than most, and ur SHBG is clearly on the low side. So I feel like ur experience actually backs up the whole trying to get E2 close to ur SHBG level. Thanks for the anecdote

 

[eli]

Ya so ur not far off from ur E2 matching ur SHBG. U still feel best at a lower E2 than most, and ur SHBG is clearly on the low side. So I feel like ur experience actually backs up the whole trying to get E2 close to ur SHBG level. Thanks for the anecdote

I'm starting to think if it's E2 to DHT ratio actually...

 

[Gman86]

My guess is that it is much lower than that. Probably 8-15. It's usually 26 or lower on just 160mg of test. I didn't get Free T and excessive testing bc I didn't do this testing thru my doctor. I used a workaround to testing bc I am in a state that doesn't allow self ordered pay for bloods. I wanted to see if this path worked before paying for extra tests. My free T is probably 80-100 best guess but in the end all guesses. All I can tell you is how I feel and it is pretty damn good. As good as I have ever felt on TRT and I have felt dialed in on that. I'm just bigger and stronger using this level.

Obv u can’t stay on 500 test and 250 Primo forever, what’s ur plan going forward? How much longer u gonna stay on this protocol, and what u gonna switch to when ur done?

 

[Gman86]

I'm starting to think if it's E2 to DHT ratio actually...

Oh interesting. Don’t think many people consider this ratio, but u could be onto something

 

[Stoak]

My SHBG is 7-13, E2 at those levels has me feeling like crap, low-mid 20s where I feel best (only with injections) with cream on testicles, E2 number doesn't make a difference in how I feel oddly

I had my E2 at 4 once when using too much primo on TRT 160mg. I was using 250mg primo and I felt fine. And I was there for a couple months at least.

 

[Stoak]

Obv u can’t stay on 500 test and 250 Primo forever, what’s ur plan going forward? How much longer u gonna stay on this protocol, and what u gonna switch to when ur done?

I will just go back to my TRT doses of 160mg per week. I feel fine there. I think I could do 16 weeks on this who knows maybe more. I don't need estrogen management really at those levels although I am thinking of dropping the dose to 140mg per week to see if I can keep my E2 in the mid 20s without an AI.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I'd imagine similar results can be had with Anavar which is available via prescription in the US. I haven't personally attempted it, but I theorize it possible as it is a DHT derivative.

Awesome thread. I can confirm for myself at least that Anavar doesn't drop Estrogen significantly but it does drop SHBG like a crazy. My estrogen went twice as high on Anavar because it dropped my SHBG by75% and freed up the Test to eventually aromatize.

 

[Stoak]

Obv u can’t stay on 500 test and 250 Primo forever, what’s ur plan going forward? How much longer u gonna stay on this protocol, and what u gonna switch to when ur done?

I have some bloodwork being drawn tomorrow which will include health markers other than hormones. Metabolic panel, CBC, PSA... if my hematocrit is too high or my cholesterol is really out of whack, I'm going to stop and go down to 140mg test cyp no primo. I'm roughly 10 weeks into this experiment and lately I have been getting some headaches that aren't great. I'm not sure they are related to anything blood levels but may have to do with a bit of weight gain. I've put on about 8 pounds in these last couple months and have gone from 175-200 pounds with basically no bodyfat gain in the last 20 or so weeks since resuming TRT for 8 weeks and then 10 weeks of 400/500 test+ 250 primo. I went to the doctor the other day for something unrelated and the nurse took my BP and said it was 152/110 and maybe I was "anxious" and then the doctor took it again at the end of the appt and it was 130/80 which is closer to where I normally sit. Freaked me out a little bit. Either way, I'm probably coming to the end of this experiment. Great success though IMO. Any time I cycle again, it's going to be my go to = 1 ml test (cyp or e) + amp of primo E3.5 days.

 

[Stoak]

Results came in really quick. Some things were quite unexpected. My hematocrit is DOWN 3 points (46) from 2021 TRT bloodwork. So I have lower hematocrit on 400/500 test + 250 primo than I do on 160 test. I really think I know why. It's the E2. My E2 is lower using primo mid 20s than it is on 160 test with no AI (35ish). In early 21 I was trying to sort out whether I liked an AI and most of the time I was using none.

My platelets are the HIGHEST they have ever been. This is good for me. I'm usually below the bottom reference range slightly 140/150 but came in 191 this time.

I recall seeing Dr. Touliatos bloods and he's in the 70s E2 on a similar dose to me and had to inject ED to avoid having to do phlebotomies. Interesting line of thought and interesting results to say the least.

My cholesterol is awful specifically my HDL. I usually have a good number on TRT my last was 57... off TRT I can push this number near 80. My LDL is atrocious too at 169. I have been bulking on purpose so I would imagine this to be better if I had better body composition and cleaner diet. The low HDL was a bit of a shock for me as I'm not using any oral steroids and still walking about 25,000 steps per day. The main reason here to stop this is my cholesterol... f*cking awful LDL. I take krill oil, eat olive oil a lot, cook w avocado, but it doesn't seem to help. Next time I do this experiment perhaps in March or April, I will use 400/500 test + 250 primo again but i will cut. Bloods will be interesting then.


Hemoglobin 15.7 vs 16.2 *2021 g/dL 13.0-17.7
Hematocrit 46.7 vs 49.3 *2021 % 37.5-51.0

Glucose 90 vs 89 *2021 mg/dL 70-99
BUN 21 vs 22 *2021 mg/dL 6-24
Creatinine 1.35 High vs 1.26 *2021 mg/dL 0.76-1.27

AST (SGOT) 43 High vs 46 *2021 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 56 High vs 36 *2021 IU/L 0-4

Cholesterol, Total 217 High vs 200 *2021 mg/dL 100-199
Triglycerides 99 vs 85 *2021 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 30 Low vs 57 *2021 mg/dL >39
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 18 vs 15 *2021 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Chol Calc (NIH) 169 vs High 128 *2021 mg/dL 0-99
LDL/HDL Ratio 5.6 High ratio

PSA 2.0 vs 1.8 *2021 ...this thing fluctuates between 1.8 and 2.2 on multiple tests over the past few years

I didnt have my hormones done here but a few weeks ago and a reminder is that my test was near 3300ng/dl and my e2 was 26.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Results came in really quick. Some things were quite unexpected. My hematocrit is DOWN 3 points (46) from 2021 TRT bloodwork. So I have lower hematocrit on 400/500 test + 250 primo than I do on 160 test. I really think I know why. It's the E2. My E2 is lower using primo mid 20s than it is on 160 test with no AI (35ish). In early 21 I was trying to sort out whether I liked an AI and most of the time I was using none.

My platelets are the HIGHEST they have ever been. This is good for me. I'm usually below the bottom reference range slightly 140/150 but came in 191 this time.

I recall seeing Dr. Touliatos bloods and he's in the 70s E2 on a similar dose to me and had to inject ED to avoid having to do phlebotomies. Interesting line of thought and interesting results to say the least.

My cholesterol is awful specifically my HDL. I usually have a good number on TRT my last was 57... off TRT I can push this number near 80. My LDL is atrocious too at 169. I have been bulking on purpose so I would imagine this to be better if I had better body composition and cleaner diet. The low HDL was a bit of a shock for me as I'm not using any oral steroids and still walking about 25,000 steps per day. The main reason here to stop this is my cholesterol... f*cking awful LDL. I take krill oil, eat olive oil a lot, cook w avocado, but it doesn't seem to help. Next time I do this experiment perhaps in March or April, I will use 400/500 test + 250 primo again but i will cut. Bloods will be interesting then.


Hemoglobin 15.7 vs 16.2 *2021 g/dL 13.0-17.7
Hematocrit 46.7 vs 49.3 *2021 % 37.5-51.0

Glucose 90 vs 89 *2021 mg/dL 70-99
BUN 21 vs 22 *2021 mg/dL 6-24
Creatinine 1.35 High vs 1.26 *2021 mg/dL 0.76-1.27

AST (SGOT) 43 High vs 46 *2021 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 56 High vs 36 *2021 IU/L 0-4

Cholesterol, Total 217 High vs 200 *2021 mg/dL 100-199
Triglycerides 99 vs 85 *2021 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 30 Low vs 57 *2021 mg/dL >39
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 18 vs 15 *2021 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Chol Calc (NIH) 169 vs High 128 *2021 mg/dL 0-99
LDL/HDL Ratio 5.6 High ratio

PSA 2.0 vs 1.8 *2021 ...this thing fluctuates between 1.8 and 2.2 on multiple tests over the past few years

I didnt have my hormones done here but a few weeks ago and a reminder is that my test was near 3300ng/dl and my e2 was 26.

Thanks for your dedication to this forum! You toched on just about everything I would ever want to know except....., how do you feel? Libido? Energy? Mental clarity? etc.

 

[tareload]

The main reason here to stop this is my cholesterol... f*cking awful LDL.

Triglycerides 99 vs 85 *2021 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 30 Low vs 57 *2021 mg/dL >39

You nailed it; the trig/hdl-c ratio is the real tell. Major deterioration in the ratio which is good proxy for your lipid particle counts (NMR test...size of your LDL, HDL particles, etc).

References:

Mid-Blast Blood Work

LDL or more accurately LDL-C is an incomplete metric. See here and links I shared above: I will share them again: Read this thread: Does this make sense @throwawayfitness? LDL-p (particle sizes are important). Trig/hdl-c is a cheap indirect measure if you do not want to pay for...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Stoak]

Thanks for your dedication to this forum! You toched on just about everything I would ever want to know except....., how do you feel? Libido? Energy? Mental clarity? etc.

I feel great consistently. As good as I have ever felt on TRT. Just bigger and stronger. I have had bad periods on TRT too mostly revolving around nandrolone. Straight test I feel good as well as long as I'm 160 or a bit lower area. I'm guessing here but I bet if I dropped down to 200 test + 125 primo once per week I may be able to get my blood markers in order and do this therapy in perpetuity without an AI. I'd need to stop bulking obviously... and this bulk has been SLOW. I've been adding less than a pound per week.