PEPTIDE RESULTS IN: IGF-1, testosterone, etc.

[mcs]

Big n-1 results update.

With all the gym bros telling me for the last 10 years that GH secretatgogue peptides are a scam and a waste of $$$$ - and that good ol' GH is superior and the only way to go - - -

Let me preface this post by saying that these peptides do work. I repeat. THESE PEPTIDES DO WORK.

And now I have the labs to prove it.

In addition, I feel "tighter", recomp likely (no dexa to confirm yet), but can see more vascularity in extremities which is a sign of the holy grail (fat loss).

GHRHs-GHRPs - I did not expect to see any results:
As you can see, my IGF-I and Z score is officially in overdrive. I figure I need this in order to get enough lipolytic (fat burning) effect - for now.



This is an upper level for an 18 y/o and I'm 63. My baseline was 250 and now I've more than doubled that. Great for short-term (anabolism and leaning out). Bad for long-term (reduces longevity and increases tumorigenesis). But nothing else has worked thus far to recomp - not calorie restriction, not more training.

If your IGF-I is already at a supraphysiologic level, what benefit would the best pharma-grade GH do???

But how much longer is it safe staying at these supraphysiologic levels (I already complained about occasional carpal tunnel sides - same as if you take too much GH)?

Another unexpected effect: increased fasting insulin - likely from Ipamorelin. My fasting insulin level has never exceeded 8:

"Ipamorelin injections will increase cell synthesis, elevate secretion levels of insulin from pancreatic tissue,"
ref: https://medwinfamily.com/ipamorelin-injections/

Kisspeptin-10 - another unexpected game changer:
Total testosterone levels have a ways to go, still sub-par (basically back to baseline before I started Metformin after which it tanked my levels), FT is still in the tank as is BT. Optimizing T levels has been the bane of my existence. Due to a other health issues, I have never felt comfortable jumping on the TRT bandwagon.
I was taking 100mcg/day of KS-10 for 30 days to achieve a 40% increase in TT:

01/18/2023:


02/28/2023:


Should I double the dose and re-test in another month to see if I can get my levels optimized? I'm not ready to throw in the towel and go TRT until I've exhausted safer alternatives. Need another test to confirm this 40% boost is, in fact, due to KS-10.

The healing peptides (BPC-157; TB-500) - nothing still:
Improvement perhaps in the gut dept. but not in the joint/tendon/cartilage dept. I will need to go the extra mile with stem cells/PRP to regenerate the damage. Nonetheless, I still believe in BPC/TB. Perhaps the anti-inflammatory effect has somewhat reduced my CRP.

Thymosin Alpha-1 - lighting up immunity - but caution to those using it:
As you can see, my IL-2 receptor cytokine is slightly elevated above range:


TA-1 seems to upregulate IL-2R: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2303316/
What else could this mean?
" Increased levels of soluble (s)IL-2R, therefore, are considered as an indication of an on-going immune response which could be used to monitor immune-mediated diseases."
ref: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521661620303910

My goal with TA-1 was to increase my CD8 T-cell count since they were suppressed for some unknown reason. I don't have those results yet.

What am I running?
Tesamorelin: 2mg + Ipamorelin 300mcg (pm);
Ipamorelin/CJC-1295 blend 300mcg (am);
AOD-9604 333mcg (am);
Frag 176-191 500mcg (pm);
BPC-157 500mcg/day;
TB-500 1mg e3d;
just started PEG MGF 250mcg site injected in each arm (post wo);
Kisspeptin-10 100mcg (am);
Thymosin Alpha-1 1.5mg e3d.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

"Bad for long-term (reduces longevity and increases tumorigenesis). " You state this like it's a fact, but it's not. One can easily envision scenarios where the benefits increase longevity and decrease cancer.

" I'm not ready to throw in the towel and go TRT until I've exhausted safer alternatives." What do you believe is "unsafe " about TRT? Nothing is without risk, however TRT is likely one of the safest medical interventions there is, especially factoring in the benefits.

Regarding joint issues, have you reviewed the Fixes for Joint Issues thread?

 

[Cataceous]

Instead of increasing the kisspeptin-10 dose I would split it up or just add a second daily dose. The half-life is quite short, even compared to native kisspeptin-54. According to one of @madman's posts it is 3 minutes versus 28 minutes.

 

[mcs]

Instead of increasing the kisspeptin-10 dose I would split it up or just add a second daily dose. The half-life is quite short, even compared to native kisspeptin-54. According to one of @madman's posts it is 3 minutes versus 28 minutes.

So, 100mcg in a.m. and 100mcg in p.m. as an example.

Any thoughts as to the risks of elevated IGF-1 levels from the GH secretagogues?

 

[mcs]

"Bad for long-term (reduces longevity and increases tumorigenesis). " You state this like it's a fact, but it's not. One can easily envision scenarios where the benefits increase longevity and decrease cancer.

Any papers to show that? Everything I've seen is that it is a driver for diabetes, CVD and malignancies.

 

[bixt]

Any thoughts as to the risks of elevated IGF-1 levels from the GH secretagogues?

As long as you have no negative high GH symptoms such as carpal tunnel like pain, tingling fingers, etc you are good to go.

Its unlikely these secretagogues will increase your GH/IGF beyond what around ~2IU of good GH can do. And 2IU is around what people use long term for longevity and well being.

 

[Cataceous]

So, 100mcg in a.m. and 100mcg in p.m. as an example.
...

Sure, or the second dose could probably be smaller.

...
Any thoughts as to the risks of elevated IGF-1 levels from the GH secretagogues?

Recent research again demonstrated a U-shaped mortality curve associated with IGF-1. I think optimal was in a narrow range around 150 ng/mL or a bit lower. I would not want to maintain high levels indefinitely.

 

[JmarkH]

Enclomiphene drops my IGf-1 to around 60 but if I take MK677 10mg at bedtime my IGF-1 comes back as 97. Seems like 15 to 20mg MK677 may be the sweet spot.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Sure, or the second dose could probably be smaller.


Recent research again demonstrated a U-shaped mortality curve associated with IGF-1. I think optimal was in a narrow range around 150 ng/dL or a bit lower. I would not want to maintain high levels indefinitely.

Is it possible IGF-1 is actually a marker for chronically elevated insulin, at least in the general population? That would certainly be bad, however elevated IGF-1 independent of insulin (as would come from increased GH) might not be an issue.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Any papers to show that? Everything I've seen is that it is a driver for diabetes, CVD and malignancies.

No papers, just logic. If a round of GH for a reasonable period at minimum effective dose healed injuries that otherwise would not heal, and enabled faster recovery, and hence enabled greater activity, positive mindset and everything that comes with those (reduced inflammation, improved body composition, etc., which are in themselves anti-cancer, and CVD, and pro-insulin sensitivity) then those benefits might well outweigh any negatives. The anti-GH crowd uses poor evidence (e.g. people and mice who are GH-compromised from birth) and don't suggest a viable alternative. I don't know what the answer is and it is likely different from person to person, but just making a blanket statement is another example of single-variable fallacy. An irritating side-observation is that the anti-GH people I am aware of are not yet at an age where they would have experienced the phenomenon of random body parts breaking, and hence need to seek the perspective of those who know what that's like.

 

[Cataceous]

Is it possible IGF-1 is actually a marker for chronically elevated insulin, at least in the general population? That would certainly be bad, however elevated IGF-1 independent of insulin (as would come from increased GH) might not be an issue.

Insulin may be part of it, but how are you going to decouple them? Increased GH can cause hyperinsulinism. Look at the OP's numbers.

One must consider Laron Syndrome, insensitivity to GH resulting in low IGF-1.

Evidence has suggested that people with Laron syndrome have a reduced risk of developing cancer and diabetes mellitus type II, with a significantly reduced incidence and delayed age of onset of these diseases compared to their unaffected relatives.​

Some animal research is prefaced by a blunt statement:

Growth hormone (GH) and insulinlike growth factor (IGF) promote aging and age-related pathologies. Inhibiting this pathway by targeting IGF receptor (IGF-1R) is a promising strategy to extend life span, alleviate age-related diseases, and reduce tumor growth.​

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Insulin may be part of it, but how are you going to decouple them? Increased GH can cause hyperinsulinism. Look at the OP's numbers.

One must consider Laron Syndrome, insensitivity to GH resulting in low IGF-1.

Evidence has suggested that people with Laron syndrome have a reduced risk of developing cancer and diabetes mellitus type II, with a significantly reduced incidence and delayed age of onset of these diseases compared to their unaffected relatives.​

Some animal research is prefaced by a blunt statement:

Growth hormone (GH) and insulinlike growth factor (IGF) promote aging and age-related pathologies. Inhibiting this pathway by targeting IGF receptor (IGF-1R) is a promising strategy to extend life span, alleviate age-related diseases, and reduce tumor growth.​

Even if they can't be completely decoupled, being especially attentive to all the usual suspects for maximizing insulin sensitivity (e.g. Time restricted eating, minimum effective dose of carbs, encouraging Non Insulin Mediated Glucose Uptake, berberine, metformin, etc.) might well allow a fairly high IGF-1 level for enough time to have benefit. Also, if insulin returns to normal after a GH run that might also create a positive risk/reward for the GH. I'm just speculating but my basic point is that if GH provides benefits that nothing else does, then ruling it out based on a blanket statement that it is always a net negative for everyone seems like an overstatement of the risks.

On a related note, I recently had two major healing events, one for my back and one for one of my hips, and although I was/am using/doing many things, a GH peptide was one of the things which seemed to help the most during a very short period of use.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Big n-1 results update.

With all the gym bros telling me for the last 10 years that GH secretatgogue peptides are a scam and a waste of $$$$ - and that good ol' GH is superior and the only way to go - - -

Let me preface this post by saying that these peptides do work. I repeat. THESE PEPTIDES DO WORK.

And now I have the labs to prove it.

In addition, I feel "tighter", recomp likely (no dexa to confirm yet), but can see more vascularity in extremities which is a sign of the holy grail (fat loss).

GHRHs-GHRPs - I did not expect to see any results:
As you can see, my IGF-I and Z score is officially in overdrive. I figure I need this in order to get enough lipolytic (fat burning) effect - for now.



This is an upper level for an 18 y/o and I'm 63. My baseline was 250 and now I've more than doubled that. Great for short-term (anabolism and leaning out). Bad for long-term (reduces longevity and increases tumorigenesis). But nothing else has worked thus far to recomp - not calorie restriction, not more training.

If your IGF-I is already at a supraphysiologic level, what benefit would the best pharma-grade GH do???

But how much longer is it safe staying at these supraphysiologic levels (I already complained about occasional carpal tunnel sides - same as if you take too much GH)?

Another unexpected effect: increased fasting insulin - likely from Ipamorelin. My fasting insulin level has never exceeded 8:

"Ipamorelin injections will increase cell synthesis, elevate secretion levels of insulin from pancreatic tissue,"
ref: https://medwinfamily.com/ipamorelin-injections/

Kisspeptin-10 - another unexpected game changer:
Total testosterone levels have a ways to go, still sub-par (basically back to baseline before I started Metformin after which it tanked my levels), FT is still in the tank as is BT. Optimizing T levels has been the bane of my existence. Due to a other health issues, I have never felt comfortable jumping on the TRT bandwagon.
I was taking 100mcg/day of KS-10 for 30 days to achieve a 40% increase in TT:

01/18/2023:


02/28/2023:


Should I double the dose and re-test in another month to see if I can get my levels optimized? I'm not ready to throw in the towel and go TRT until I've exhausted safer alternatives. Need another test to confirm this 40% boost is, in fact, due to KS-10.

The healing peptides (BPC-157; TB-500) - nothing still:
Improvement perhaps in the gut dept. but not in the joint/tendon/cartilage dept. I will need to go the extra mile with stem cells/PRP to regenerate the damage. Nonetheless, I still believe in BPC/TB. Perhaps the anti-inflammatory effect has somewhat reduced my CRP.

Thymosin Alpha-1 - lighting up immunity - but caution to those using it:
As you can see, my IL-2 receptor cytokine is slightly elevated above range:


TA-1 seems to upregulate IL-2R: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2303316/
What else could this mean?
" Increased levels of soluble (s)IL-2R, therefore, are considered as an indication of an on-going immune response which could be used to monitor immune-mediated diseases."
ref: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521661620303910

My goal with TA-1 was to increase my CD8 T-cell count since they were suppressed for some unknown reason. I don't have those results yet.

What am I running?
Tesamorelin: 2mg + Ipamorelin 300mcg (pm);
Ipamorelin/CJC-1295 blend 300mcg (am);
AOD-9604 333mcg (am);
Frag 176-191 500mcg (pm);
BPC-157 500mcg/day;
TB-500 1mg e3d;
just started PEG MGF 250mcg site injected in each arm (post wo);
Kisspeptin-10 100mcg (am);
Thymosin Alpha-1 1.5mg e3d.

I thought you might be interested in seeing some work myself and others did with hGH and peptides back in maybe 2005. I believe Dr. Crysler got all of this blood work eventually.

Through extensive blood testing we found:
- HGH maintains high blood GH levels for about 9-17 hours. High IGF-1 levels for 24-36 hours.
- Peptides (modified GRF 1-29/GHRP) maintain high blood GH levels for about 3 hours. High IGF-1 levels are similar to hGH.

So yes, you can get the serum IGF levels up as high as 2.5-4iu hGH using peptides. This information has been out for quite a few years yet the bros in the gym still don't get it. We also did some amazing blood working using CJC 1295 DAC with some rather large doses (3-5g) and it is as good as much higher doses of hGH because of the GH bleed it creates for 7 days(=to ~10iu hGH). I actually know a well known French Pro BB who was using CJC DAC with GHRP-6 because it was so hard at the time to find good hGH. He said he got very good results for much less money.

Blood tests have show that when combining 100-300 mcg of GHRP-2 and 100 mcg of modified GRF 1-29, 3X daily, IGF-1 levels are comparable to what would be achieved with 2.5-4.0 IU of GH daily. So by combining the two (peptides + hGH) you should be able to double those amounts which has the added benefit of cost effectiveness. 2-4IU of hGH + peptides x 3 equates to 4-8IU of hGH. Plus you can preventing the body's natural feed back loop from producing somatostatin and shutting down the natural secretions of GH by adding the GHRP.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Is it possible IGF-1 is actually a marker for chronically elevated insulin, at least in the general population? That would certainly be bad, however elevated IGF-1 independent of insulin (as would come from increased GH) might not be an issue.

The Association Between IGF-I and Insulin Resistance: A general population study in Danish adults

OBJECTIVE. IGF-I has an almost 50% amino acid sequence homology with insulin and elicits nearly the same hypoglycemic response. Studies showed that low and

diabetesjournals.org

OBJECTIVE
IGF-I has an almost 50% amino acid sequence homology with insulin and elicits nearly the same hypoglycemic response. Studies showed that low and high IGF-I levels are related to impaired glucose tolerance and to a higher risk of type 2 diabetes.

 

[Keepfit1]

Sure, or the second dose could probably be smaller.


Recent research again demonstrated a U-shaped mortality curve associated with IGF-1. I think optimal was in a narrow range around 150 ng/mL or a bit lower. I would not want to maintain high levels indefinitely.

Most of the antiaging docs I know say to keep it around 300+ and Dr Hertoghe reckons over 400 and anything less is unhealthy. I wonder who is right?

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I thought you might be interested in seeing some work myself and others did with hGH and peptides back in maybe 2005. I believe Dr. Crysler got all of this blood work eventually.

Through extensive blood testing we found:
- HGH maintains high blood GH levels for about 9-17 hours. High IGF-1 levels for 24-36 hours.
- Peptides (modified GRF 1-29/GHRP) maintain high blood GH levels for about 3 hours. High IGF-1 levels are similar to hGH.

So yes, you can get the serum IGF levels up as high as 2.5-4iu hGH using peptides. This information has been out for quite a few years yet the bros in the gym still don't get it. We also did some amazing blood working using CJC 1295 DAC with some rather large doses (3-5g) and it is as good as much higher doses of hGH because of the GH bleed it creates for 7 days(=to ~10iu hGH). I actually know a well known French Pro BB who was using CJC DAC with GHRP-6 because it was so hard at the time to find good hGH. He said he got very good results for much less money.

Blood tests have show that when combining 100-300 mcg of GHRP-2 and 100 mcg of modified GRF 1-29, 3X daily, IGF-1 levels are comparable to what would be achieved with 2.5-4.0 IU of GH daily. So by combining the two (peptides + hGH) you should be able to double those amounts which has the added benefit of cost effectiveness. 2-4IU of hGH + peptides x 3 equates to 4-8IU of hGH. Plus you can preventing the body's natural feed back loop from producing somatostatin and shutting down the natural secretions of GH by adding the GHRP.

This is very interesting. I assume the CJC 1295 w/DAC tapered down at a fairly steady rate over the 7 days? I know most avoid it because of the un-natural GH pattern and the stress on the pituitary, but I use it because of the potential for Insulin to conflict with the no-DAC variations. I think it is one of the primary things that returned my hip to a health state, but I use it only once every several weeks and at much lower doses.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

This is very interesting. I assume the CJC 1295 w/DAC tapered down at a fairly steady rate over the 7 days? I know most avoid it because of the un-natural GH pattern and the stress on the pituitary, but I use it because of the potential for Insulin to conflict with the no-DAC variations. I think it is one of the primary things that returned my hip to a health state, but I use it only once every several weeks and at much lower doses.

Those guys I know doing the DAC are actually doing a 2mg vial M,W, F (6000mcg total). Most are using a fast acting insulin with it (5iu/day)

 

[Nelson Vergel]

What am I running?
Tesamorelin: 2mg + Ipamorelin 300mcg (pm);
Ipamorelin/CJC-1295 blend 300mcg (am);
AOD-9604 333mcg (am);
Frag 176-191 500mcg (pm);
BPC-157 500mcg/day;
TB-500 1mg e3d;
just started PEG MGF 250mcg site injected in each arm (post wo);
Kisspeptin-10 100mcg (am);
Thymosin Alpha-1 1.5mg e3d.

Hey @mcs I am loving your dertailed posts. Thanks for doing that!
Hey, how much do you think you are spending per month?

 

[Keepfit1]

Hey @mcs I am loving your dertailed posts. Thanks for doing that!
Hey, how much do you think you are spending per month?

yes I wondered what that cost is per month, is it getting up near HGH

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Tesamorelin: 2mg + Ipamorelin 300mcg (pm); $96 + $46
Ipamorelin/CJC-1295 blend 300mcg (am); $80
AOD-9604 333mcg (am); $47.50
Frag 176-191 500mcg (pm); $45.00
BPC-157 500mcg/day; $59.50
TB-500 1mg e3d; $39.50
just started PEG MGF 250mcg site injected in each arm (post wo); $85.00
Kisspeptin-10 100mcg (am); $55.00
Thymosin Alpha-1 1.5mg e3d. $45.00

Total just to get started - $598.50

Humatrope - $1859 GoodRx 6mg , almost impossible to get a prescription