Peak and Trough E2 Variations

[antelopers]

I have been researching a lot of threads, not only on excelmale but many other boards as well. I noticed something interesting from the guys who pulled labs from both their peak and troughs.

Men who were reading out between 20-30 on the sensitive E2 test were coming up as high as 60+ on their peak blood draws, as little as 3 days apart. The E2 variations were drastically more significant on once per week injections. I excluded overly high or low SHBG in the data I found.

Now I know everyone has different tolerances for estrogen, and that it isn't inherently bad. But surely, 60 is not normally found in a healthy natural male.

Surely, even for guys who have a good estradiol tolerance, and normal SHBG values, daily or EOD injections would be providing the environment much closer to that of a healthy natural male, which is what we on TRT are attempting to emulate.

I just wanted to share this info and open up a discussion.

 

[Vince]

What was the difference in there testosterone peak and troughs. Did the difference in percent of T to E change?

 

[antelopers]

What was the difference in there testosterone peak and troughs. Did the difference in percent of T to E change?

Yes it was usually a few hundred points difference as well. So while the E2 sometimes doubled, the testosterone was up normally by around 2-300 points.

This is what I would expect from an injection, since it is not truly a steady state release, but more of an initial spike with a slow descent. So the initial boost in T from, say, a 750 trough to 1050 so quickly, would likely be responsible for driving up aromatase activity.

* Edited post to include more info and fix typos

 

[Vince Carter]

Looking at Estrogen in the peak has more than a little merit to it. I'll get mine in the next month or so and have something to compare side-by-side with my steady protocol.
Knowing that E is not a stable factor its as if we only judge E being high, or low, because of a number taken only at it's very lowest point seems to be a flawed method.
We know that E follows T so looking at a trough E and passing judgement on it and negating that E will rise and stay up before coming back to the trough seems rather misguided.

 

[antelopers]

Looking at Estrogen in the peak has more than a little merit to it. I'll get mine in the next month or so and have something to compare side-by-side with my steady protocol.
Knowing that E is not a stable factor its as if we only judge E being high, or low, because of a number taken only at it's very lowest point seems to be a flawed method.
We know that E follows T so looking at a trough E and passing judgement on it and negating that E will rise and stay up before coming back to the trough seems rather misguided.

Agreed, and I look forward to seeing your lab work.

 

[Vince]

Yes it was usually a few hundred points difference as well. So while the E2 sometimes doubled, the testosterone was up normally by around 2-300 points.

This is what I would expect from an injection, since it is not truly a steady state release, but more of an initial spike with a slow descent. So the initial boost in T from, say, a 750 trough to 1050 so quickly, would likely be responsible for driving up aromatase activity.

* Edited post to include more info and fix typos

So what you saying the percent of E to T changes. It would be interesting to see what percent they say it's changing when it goes from higher testosterone to lower.

 

[S1W]

I've always just taken this as a given. But I have played around with testing at peak and then again a few days later at trough simply because I was curious.

On one protocol with E3.5D injections (M/Th), I tested peak E2 on Tuesday and got 55, then tested at trough on Thursday and it was down to 39.

On a different protocol, still E3.5D (M/Th), I tested peak TT on Tuesday and got 1450, then tested at trough on Thursday and it was down to 880.

SHBG around 23.

 

[antelopers]

I've always just taken this as a given. But I have played around with testing at peak and then again a few days later at trough simply because I was curious.

On one protocol with E3.5D injections (M/Th), I tested peak E2 on Tuesday and got 55, then tested at trough on Thursday and it was down to 39.

On a different protocol, still E3.5D (M/Th), I tested peak TT on Tuesday and got 1450, then tested at trough on Thursday and it was down to 880.

SHBG around 23.

Interesting results thanks for sharing. Bigger swings in T than I had been finding and not as much in E2. How did you feel on these protocols? Could you feel the drastic swing in numbers?

Also where are your labs and protocol currently?

 

[S1W]

antelopers,

I tried to show that these were with different protocols (dosage) - E2 results with one protocol (lower dosage), TT results with a different protocol (higher dosage). I should have been more clear about that.

The big swings in TT was with a protocol of 120mg/week as 60mg E3.5D. That has been my meat and potatoes protocol so far. I've played around with other protocols (and am currently trying something new) but seem to go back to that since that is where I seem to feel best. With the TT trough of 880 my E2 was 47. I don't know what my E2 was with peak TT of 1450 but if the ratios that are consistent with my labs are any indication, it likely could have been as high as 80.

I always feel like an idiot when I discuss E2 with my doc because I don't really know if I'm having issues with it or not - my E2 has been above the normal range to some extent the entire time that I've been on TRT. I'm certainly not having any extreme/obvious E2 issues, but I've never had it in a normal range so don't have a basis for comparison. We tried a low dose AI for a bit just to see if it made a difference and I definitely did not like how it made me feel, so we scrapped that.

I'm currently trying a more frequent injection protocol to see if that lowers E2/HCT, and if it does, if I feel better that way. I'm not that far into it so won't have new labs for a while. If it doesn't pan out, I'll likely go back to 60mg E3.5D.

 

[Nashtide]

When folks say EOD is that different from MWF? To me, EOD would be M W F Sunday T R Saturday. I would definitely screw that up!

 

[S1W]

When folks say EOD is that different from MWF? To me, EOD would be M W F Sunday T R Saturday. I would definitely screw that up!

MWF and EOD are different. EOD would literally be every other day, as you outlined. There are a few holdouts who consider EOD to be MWF but at least around here that seems rare.

EOD is fairly easy to keep track of - pick odd days of the week or even days of the week and those are your injection days. There are more odd days in a year, so I'd choose odd days. For months that end in 31, either inject 2 days in a row and keep odd days (probably the easiest approach), or switch to even days the next month then switch back to odd when the calendar demands it.

 

[Gman86]

I've always just taken this as a given. But I have played around with testing at peak and then again a few days later at trough simply because I was curious.

On one protocol with E3.5D injections (M/Th), I tested peak E2 on Tuesday and got 55, then tested at trough on Thursday and it was down to 39.

On a different protocol, still E3.5D (M/Th), I tested peak TT on Tuesday and got 1450, then tested at trough on Thursday and it was down to 880.

SHBG around 23.

I was going to guess that your SHBG was low, due to you clearly clearing the testosterone very quickly. A SHBG of 23 completely makes sense. This is why knowing your SHBG level is so important. Injection frequency can make all the difference in a protocol.

 

[S1W]

Injection frequency can make all the difference in a protocol.

I don't doubt it, so I'm giving it a whirl.

 

[Nashtide]

MWF and EOD are different. EOD would literally be every other day, as you outlined. There are a few holdouts who consider EOD to be MWF but at least around here that seems rare.

EOD is fairly easy to keep track of - pick odd days of the week or even days of the week and those are your injection days. There are more odd days in a year, so I'd choose odd days. For months that end in 31, either inject 2 days in a row and keep odd days (probably the easiest approach), or switch to even days the next month then switch back to odd when the calendar demands it.

Okay, so I’m currently injecting 100mg per week. What does that translate into for EOD?

 

[S1W]

Okay, so I’m currently injecting 100mg per week. What does that translate into for EOD?

It doesn't translate directly - you could go to .15ml (30mg) for an equivalent weekly total of 105mg, or to .14ml (28mg) for an equivalent weekly total of 98mg.

The formulas I use to convert are: (2/7) x [weekly dose] = EOD dose in mg. Or [weekly dose] / 7 = EOD dose in ml. Of course there are a few other ways to play around with the math but those work for me.

Then there are the people who say that when increasing injection frequency you should lower the dose a bit - I'll defer to people who have experience with that to chime in on that.

 

[Vince Carter]

When I got more frequent and I've made this progression from E3.5D, to M/W/F to EOD to daily I've always reduced the dose ~5mg-10mg and then judged it on feeling and labs and adjust. usually has been to lower the dose even more as I've tuned my Cyp dose to not have me over the Free T lab range in my trough.

 

[Cataceous]

Yes it was usually a few hundred points difference as well. So while the E2 sometimes doubled, the testosterone was up normally by around 2-300 points.

This is what I would expect from an injection, since it is not truly a steady state release, but more of an initial spike with a slow descent. ...

This is certainly the case if you are aiming for constant hormone levels. The paradox to me is that this goal, essentially emulating hormone levels of old men, is—for most guys—preferable to having intermediate-time oscillations of from days to weeks. Whereas young guys naturally have these relatively large daily oscillations and do fine.

Question: How did the guys in your research decide when their peaks would occur?

 

[antelopers]

This is certainly the case if you are aiming for constant hormone levels. The paradox to me is that this goal, essentially emulating hormone levels of old men, is—for most guys—preferable to having intermediate-time oscillations of from days to weeks. Whereas young guys naturally have these relatively large daily oscillations and do fine.

Question: How did the guys in your research decide when their peaks would occur?

The guys I found were generally testing 24 hours post injection, and then again the morning their injection was due, pre-injection.

Healthy guys definitely have variations in testosterone, no question. But E2 drives how we feel just as much as testosterone, if not more, as we can see from many examples of people with a healthy test level and still feeling like shit from high or low E2. A swing in T levels from 500-800 or something would be normal in a male. But a swing in E2 from 20 to 60 is not found in males from what I've seen.

 

[S1W]

When I got more frequent and I've made this progression from E3.5D, to M/W/F to EOD to daily I've always reduced the dose ~5mg-10mg and then judged it on feeling and labs and adjust. usually has been to lower the dose even more as I've tuned my Cyp dose to not have me over the Free T lab range in my trough.

I ask this question not as a challenge to what you're doing but to learn from your experience: We frequently say to focus on symptoms, not on lab ranges/numbers. So what have you found to be different about having a trough FT at or below the lab range? Have you found that to be the best way to control E2/HCT, or are there other benefits you've noticed?

 

[Cataceous]

...
Healthy guys definitely have variations in testosterone, no question. But E2 drives how we feel just as much as testosterone, if not more, as we can see from many examples of people with a healthy test level and still feeling like shit from high or low E2. A swing in T levels from 500-800 or something would be normal in a male. But a swing in E2 from 20 to 60 is not found in males from what I've seen.

So these swings to supraphysiological estradiol occur even in guys where testosterone stays reasonable, like 500-800 ng/dL? This intrigues me, because simple static models for estradiol production don't necessarily reflect this behavior.

This paper supports the idea of more modest diurnal variation in estradiol, giving a figure of 10% for young guys (30 yrs) and only 2% for older men (70 yrs).