Nandrolone decanoate's effect on total testosterone lab value

[nathan toney]

I forgot to mention that I had been on Clomid since september of '19 until 6 weeks ago. So the 60mg t cyp with nan D is a "new protocol" that is only 6 weeks old. I'm not sure if that answers the dose response issue though.... I'm also wondering what the interaction of the T cyp is with the Nan D. The fact is I am early in this protocol and am wanting it to work right now...which is silly of me.

 

[benaoao]

It’s possible that your SHBG is shot (because of nandrolone) which increases clearance of all sex hormones significantly. Looking forward to your results there.

the more I read various topics the more I think it’s low SHBG from 19nors that CAN make testosterone such a nightmare because of its excess conversion into DHT and E2

 

[nathan toney]

By shbg is shot do you mean the test was inaccurate? My guess is it is far too soon for me to know what the right protocol is. I’ll just stick with what I’m currently prescribed and talk to the Dr 5/4/20. My guess is he will be as flummoxed as me by the results...considering he told me that the peak of T cyp is at 7 days post injection, I’m not too sure he’s as up to the minute with the literature.

 

[benaoao]

No I meant tanked. Typically, very low SHBG (which Deca lowers) increases testosterone clearance a lot. A LOT. Ergo, levels drop fast after reaching their peak. Which is definitely not 7 days post injection ha.

 

[Cataceous]

... Typically, very low SHBG (which Deca lowers) increases testosterone clearance a lot. A LOT. Ergo, levels drop fast after reaching their peak. Which is definitely not 7 days post injection ha.

Not correct. Lower SHBG with TRT injections means that total serum testosterone levels are proportionally lower overall, but the rate of post-injection drop doesn't change, because it is governed by the slow ester release from the injection sites. On average you cannot clear testosterone faster than you absorb it, period.

 

[nathan toney]

Hi cat,
My shbg lab test says 46 (not sure of the units). I think I need to get the whole blood test re-done. Something isn’t right because my TT and E2 are low but shbg is 46.

 

[Cataceous]

Hi cat,
My shbg lab test says 46 (not sure of the units). I think I need to get the whole blood test re-done. Something isn’t right because my TT and E2 are low but shbg is 46.

I think you said previously it was around 50 nMol/L. The typical drop seen with TRT is larger, but some guys don't see it move at all. Having it in the 40s is ok, certainly better than having it low. But while SHBG goes where it will, you're directly controlling the testosterone input—and as noted, the current serum result is very inconsistent with the three earlier measurements.

 

[nathan toney]

Thank Cat,
I am going to call the Dr. and ask for a re test tomorrow.

 

[benaoao]

Not correct. Lower SHBG with TRT injections means that total serum testosterone levels are proportionally lower overall, but the rate of post-injection drop doesn't change, because it is governed by the slow ester release from the injection sites. On average you cannot clear testosterone faster than you absorb it, period.

That’s not what I said.

On average, you clear testosterone much faster whenever it is released because of the absence of SHBG that would otherwise bind test and prolong its half life. I wouldn’t be surprised if their SHBG is halved or more, meaning that test is halved or more.

 

[Cataceous]

That’s not what I said.

On average, you clear testosterone much faster whenever it is released because of the absence of SHBG that would otherwise bind test and prolong its half life. I wouldn’t be surprised if their SHBG is halved or more, meaning that test is halved or more.

Again you misstate it. It cannot be cleared "faster whenever it is released" because the release is at constant, slow rate that gradually lowers over time. Therefore clearance is forced to follow the same slow pattern, regardless of SHBG. You appear to be conflating the half-life of testosterone in serum with the half-life of testosterone released from injected esters. The former is controlled by SHBG, the latter is not. The half-life of testosterone in serum is less than an hour. The half-life of testosterone from esters is on the order of days.

A further concept is that the release rate of testosterone from esters is what sets free testosterone. Then free testosterone and SHBG and albumin determine where total testosterone settles. So lower SHBG does mean lower total testosterone, all else being equal. But it's lower throughout an injection cycle; the half-life of the testosterone ester doesn't change. Consider twins identical except for SHBG. Inject each with the same amount of a testosterone ester. High-SHBG twin has his total serum testosterone drop from 1000 ng/dL to 500 in five days, while low-SHBG twin has his total serum testosterone drop from 700 ng/dL to 350, also in five days. And the twins have identical free testosterone throughout.

 

[benaoao]

You’re using a lot of words to say that if SHBG is lower, total testosterone is lower. Because of SHBG prolonging testosterone’s half life in the serum.

I’ll be curious to look at the effect of such a small dose of Deca on OP’s SHBG

 

[Cataceous]

You’re using a lot of words to say that if SHBG is lower, total testosterone is lower. Because of SHBG prolonging testosterone’s half life in the serum.
...

Right, to explain why the statement that low SHBG "increases testosterone clearance a lot" is false, as is "levels drop fast after reaching their peak". These are myths that need to be quashed.

 

[benaoao]

Right, to explain why the statement that low SHBG "increases testosterone clearance a lot" is false, as is "levels drop fast after reaching their peak". These are myths that need to be quashed.

Or maybe you should start everything back from scratch... I’m always confused when guys don’t treat low SHBG extremely seriously. Perhaps because they don’t like being told that they’re fat and their diet is awful. I don’t know.

low SHBG = exaggerated metabolism and disposal of testosterone, there’s no debate here. It’s ok you can admit you’re flat out wrong

Differences in the Apparent Metabolic Clearance Rate of Testosterone in Young and Older Men With Gonadotropin Suppression Receiving Graded Doses of Testosterone - PubMed

In multiple regression models, significant predictors of aMCR-T included lean body mass (P = 0.008), percent fat mass (P = 0.009), and SHBG (P = 0.001).

Conclusions: Higher testosterone levels in older men receiving TE were associated with an age-related decrease in apparent testosterone metabolic clearance rates. Body composition and SHBG were significant predictors of aMCR-T.

I’m too kind pulling up one study. Literature is everywhere.

 

[benaoao]

this is an interesting study (scroll down to table 3)

https://cyber.sci-hub.tw/MTAuMTIxMC9qY2VtLjgxLjQuODYzNjM3MQ==/hobbs1996.pdf

Here, nandrolone doesn’t lower SHBG as much as I’d have thought or perhaps it is testosterone that dropped SHBG by a ton in test subjects. 6 weeks, both drugs at 300 mg/wk. Those free T and E2 levels in the Testosterone group looking like such a nightmare... I’d have loved to see where DHT was at. BPH*MPB galore. It’s interesting that nandrolone isn’t crashing E2 by the way. Also confusing that testosterone lean gains were considered significant (mostly water I bet) whereas nandrolone, which is much drier, yielded twice as much weight increase yet non significant. Anyways.

 

[Cataceous]

...
low SHBG = exaggerated metabolism and disposal of testosterone, there’s no debate here. It’s ok you can admit you’re flat out wrong
...

Regarding that flawed study, been there, done that. Read the whole thread if you want to understand how this works. Nothing I've said is wrong.

The issue with this study is that they are basing MCR on total T rather than free T.

 

[nathan toney]

Hi guys,
Not much to report. I talked briefly with the medical assistant for my Dr. and she said the Dr. is not worried about the odd blood test results. I see the Dr. virtually 5/4/20. I will report back on this thread after that appointment.
Thanks for your help,
Nate