I am currently on my 7th week of 140 mg per week injection of test cypionate. Talked to doc after listening to you guys and decided to add HCG to the mix for further benefits. They are suggesting injecting 1500Iu of HCG per week on same day as testosterone. What do you guys think? Seems a little much maybe? I have never taking HCG and really don't know what to expect. Any help would be appreciated, thanks..
My upcoming HCG Protocol
- Thread starter steve-wv
- Start date
Jackie Treehorn
Member
It seems that in TRT, any "large" injection (of anything) has negative consequences. Are you taking that Test injection all at once (weekly)? I am taking the same dose of Test, but I inject 70mg every 3.5 days. For HCG, I pin 300 IUs EOD. I used to pin 150 IUs daily, but I got tired of having to take another shot every day, since I take Sermorelin daily also.
As for your HCG dosage, it seems a little on the high side. The most I've ever heard of anyone taking with Test is about 1200 IUs per week. With HCG monotherapy, I've seen quite a bit higher doses, but not with Test.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
All excellent points. It is always easier to increase a dose rather than backing it down. Start low and go slow, as Gene Devine notes here.
Vince Carter
Banned
large doses will drive your E2 way up as aromitization is easier and less controllable as it occurs in the testes.
Vince Carter
Banned
Let me add that's direct personal experience backed by lab tests.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
Multiple weekly injections, smaller amounts of testosterone - the key to a successful protocol. Frankly, I feel nothing with HCG, but I take it in order to maintain some viability of my testicles. Others, however, do notice a subjective response.
Expect absolutely nothing then whatever happens will be a pleasant surprise.
IMO pp should start on hCG before beginnng TRT since it's easiest to establish your ideal dosing. Everyone reacts to it differently.
You could start out now with a higher dose but it would complicate your TRT if you started producing a lot of endogenous T. You are also much more likely to have gyno or high E2 issues with doses larger than 500 IU EOD. This is a medicine that works by slowly bringing your testes back on line. Results might take up to two weeks. You know it's working when your testes start to plump up. The goal of dual therepy is testicular maintenance as opposed to mono where one hopes to drive endogenous T up in the 700+ range as in my case.
Compared to T-cyp, hCG has a very short life in the body, 2-3 days max. The other benefit that isn't mentioned as often is CNS stimulation from LH receptors in the brain and nervous system receiving stimulus after having gone dormant on TRT or very low LH FSH levels pre-HRT.
The various male hormone glands seem to be stimulated as well. This is where those bigger doses 500-1000 tend to be rapidly effective at the beginning of hCG therepy, in my case the first 90 days on hCG mono. One can experience incredibly powerful libido and youthful energy 1-12 weeks after comensing hCG mono at doses in the range of 500-1000 EOD to 3x weekly. At least I did. This can then taper off, perhaps from E2 getting too high or the body adjusting to constant CNS LH stimulation.
I did experience high E2 and gyno for the first 6 months but I was on much larger doses than you will be just to maintain testicular tissue. One recent clincal study showed as little as 185 IU as being effective at controllng pain in intractible pain patients. My personal anecdotal observations were that the libido boost required 500-800 EOD on mono for whatever that is worth.
hCG is labeled 1500 -2000 IU range MWF for hypoganadism nd even higher for short tem fertility ratment. At this dose you see large volumes of ejaculate produced if you have healthy nuts. The prostate and seminal vesicles may also be stimulated. Months in to mono this tapered off for me.
Nutritional support is important especially in hCG monotherapy.
A conservative aproach for duo-therapy might be 350 IU EOD subQ or IM then increase by 50 IU weekly until you get a response. That will keep the intra-testicular E2 down like the others say.
IMO the exact dosing hCG isn't nearly as critical as many on here will have you believe. Almost universally in HRT it is a bad idea to vary doses more than a tiny amount every two weeks. While hCG is far more forviving of this it is a terrible habit to start.
Jackie Treehorn
Member
I've always taken my Test injections every 3.5 days, so I really don't know what it's like any other way. It's been a pretty stable ride so far...no big swings with regard to how I feel. No roller coaster ride like so many I've read about here on outdated protocols with injections every two weeks, or feeling lousy the last day or two on a weekly injection protocol. No problems with aromatization or E2, so far either, as I don't take an AI.
My HCG injections EOD have been working fine also. I've never heard of anyone taking them once a week. There are quite a few guys here that are taking 500 IUs on their test injection days (every 3.5 days). Those guys seem to be doing just fine also.
The HCG has kept my testicles the same size they were before I started TRT. As for the fertility benefits, I don't really care about that. I'm not planning on having any more kids. I can't say that I've experienced any increased libido from the HCG...I attribute that to the daily low dose Cialis I'm taking.
Don't worry about the cost of needles, etc. I wouldn't buy them from your doctor, since you can find them online very cheap. Insulin pins are dirt cheap at the Easy Touch Store.
https://www.easytouchstore.com/easy-touch-insulin-syringes?pagenumber=3
Any other med supplies (luer lock syringes, hypodermic needles, etc) I get at East Coast Medical. Great prices.
http://www.eastcoastmedicalsupply.com/index.aspx
That is for HCG mono therapy where a guy is trying to re-start natural Test levels. Having everything perfect, protocol, diet, supplements, etc...all help it work, if its going to work for a given individual. For guys on TRT all of that is still important, but with TRT you are not trying to get the body to resume normal Test production.
Jackie Treehorn
Member
Steve,
I don't think I mentioned it in my post, but my HCG dose is 300 IUs EOD. I don't see any need to increase it now. I have bloodwork due later this month, so we'll look at everything then, and there's a 99% chance that I'll go with whatever Dr. Saya says.
thanks guys for info . any of you all ever get night sweats? initially after starting TRT I did this , has estradiol checked and it was 30. haven't had my labs done yet since starting TRT that will be this Tuesday .just wondering if my test level is still low or maybe someone else?
CoastWatcher
Moderator
Your estradiol was 30 as measured by the sensitive (LC, MS/MS) test?
Vince Carter
Banned
One is for females and one for males, lilely the test you had was for females and likely useless. You always need the "sensitive" or "Ultra Sensitive" (they seem to interchange), it's the test methodology that is important...look for LC/MS/MS.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
To repeat what Vince Carter said, the only estradiol test a man should use is the LC/MS/MS method of measuring estradiol. If your doctor didn't know that, it's a sign that he/she is not aware of current TRT protocol best-practices.
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CoastWatcher
Moderator
It's very unlikely. The standard test over-reports estradiol in men. Your true value is probably below the 30 the standard assay reported. On top of that, 30 is within the range for a healthy estradiol reading. Estradiol is not an enemy lurking in your body, it's a necessary hormone. Too many men live in mortal fear of it. Keep an eye on it (with the proper test), but low E2 is as confounding as elevated levels.
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